Question:

|| ||| Apparently this weirdo thinks that all air travellers are gay. ||| After all why post it on alt.disasters.avation and at ||| rec.travel.air otherwise? || || There are air travellers who are not gay? || || How odd.  I suppose they can’t be frequent flyers. They frequently fly the Hersey Highway, though. || || Moira, the Faerie Godmother

Response:

> Apparently this weirdo thinks that all air travellers are gay. After all > why post it on alt.disasters.avation and at rec.travel.air

otherwise? There are air travellers who are not gay? How odd.  I suppose they can’t be frequent flyers. Moira, the Faerie Godmother

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Hey, "Compassionate Conservative": >> Could you explain to us in what ways are you a "Compassionate >> Conservative?" >That means having sympathy for people that have to pay high taxes. >It means allowing people to carry concealed weapons to defend >themselves. > Good one, Ron. > What’s funny, is that so-called Compassionate Conservatives will agree > with that definition.

Well, privately, anyway. Bertei

Response:

> Hey, "Compassionate Conservative": > Could you explain to us in what ways are you a "Compassionate > Conservative?"

That means having sympathy for people that have to pay high taxes. It means allowing people to carry concealed weapons to defend themselves. —    Ron

Response:

>> Hey, "Compassionate Conservative": > Could you explain to us in what ways are you a "Compassionate > Conservative?" >That means having sympathy for people that have to pay high taxes. >It means allowing people to carry concealed weapons to defend themselves.

Good one, Ron. What’s funny, is that so-called Compassionate Conservatives will agree with that definition.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >|| >||||| >|||||| >|||||| Could YOU esplain in what ways you are a "sentient human being"? >|||||| THAT would he hilarious. >|||||| >|||||| >||||| >||||| Since you answer with a question, I must assume the question I >||||| asked you is too much for your pea brain to formulate an answer. >||| >||| >||| My IQ is at least 50 points higher than yours, so FOAD. >||| >|| >|| And yet, unless English is well down the list of your mastered >|| languages….. >|| >|| Well, I’ll say no more. >|| >|| nighty night! > You are not even a sentient being.

I don’t need to be. Bertie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >|| >||||| >||||| >||||| >||||| Hey, "Compassionate Conservative": >||||| >||||| Could you explain to us in what ways are you a "Compassionate >||||| Conservative?" >||||| >||||| It ought to be good for a laugh. >||| >||| Could YOU esplain in what ways you are a "sentient human being"? >||| THAT would he hilarious. >||| >||| >|| >|| Since you answer with a question, I must assume the question I asked >|| you is too much for your pea brain to formulate an answer. > My IQ is at least 50 points higher than yours, so FOAD.

And yet, unless English is well down the list of your mastered languages….. Well, I’ll say no more. nighty night! Bertie

Response:

||

|||||

|||||| |||||| Could YOU esplain in what ways you are a "sentient human being"? |||||| THAT would he hilarious. |||||| |||||| ||||| ||||| Since you answer with a question, I must assume the question I ||||| asked you is too much for your pea brain to formulate an answer. ||| ||| ||| My IQ is at least 50 points higher than yours, so FOAD. ||| || || And yet, unless English is well down the list of your mastered || languages….. || || Well, I’ll say no more. || || nighty night! You are not even a sentient being. || || || || Bertie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >|| >|| >|| >|| Hey, "Compassionate Conservative": >|| >|| Could you explain to us in what ways are you a "Compassionate >|| Conservative?" >|| >|| It ought to be good for a laugh. > Could YOU esplain in what ways you are a "sentient human being"? THAT > would he hilarious.

Can you explain why you use caps for emphasis rahter than prose? Itwouldn’t be hilarious, but I’m stuck at home and bored and it will keep me mildly amused for a moment or so. Bertei

Response:

||

||||| ||||| ||||| ||||| Hey, "Compassionate Conservative": ||||| ||||| Could you explain to us in what ways are you a "Compassionate ||||| Conservative?" ||||| ||||| It ought to be good for a laugh. ||| ||| Could YOU esplain in what ways you are a "sentient human being"? ||| THAT would he hilarious. ||| ||| || || Since you answer with a question, I must assume the question I asked || you is too much for your pea brain to formulate an answer. My IQ is at least 50 points higher than yours, so FOAD.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >|| >|| >|| >|| Hey, "Compassionate Conservative": >|| >|| Could you explain to us in what ways are you a "Compassionate >|| Conservative?" >|| >|| It ought to be good for a laugh. >Could YOU esplain in what ways you are a "sentient human being"? THAT would >he hilarious.

Since you answer with a question, I must assume the question I asked you is too much for your pea brain to formulate an answer.

Response:

>Conservative Backlash May Have Cost Kerry Crucial Ohio

Apparently this weirdo thinks that all air travellers are gay.  After all why post it on alt.disasters.avation and at rec.travel.air otherwise? tim gueguen 101867

Response:

|| || || || Hey, "Compassionate Conservative": || || Could you explain to us in what ways are you a "Compassionate || Conservative?" || || It ought to be good for a laugh. Could YOU esplain in what ways you are a "sentient human being"? THAT would he hilarious.

Response:

Hey, "Compassionate Conservative": Could you explain to us in what ways are you a "Compassionate Conservative?" It ought to be good for a laugh.

Response:

> Hey, "Compassionate Conservative": > Could you explain to us in what ways are you a "Compassionate > Conservative?" > It ought to be good for a laugh.

I’m sure he is. Many republicans feel sorry for the peole they step on. Bertie

Response:

Conservative Backlash May Have Cost Kerry Crucial Ohio By JAKE TAPPER and JODY HASSETT ABC News WASHINGTON, Nov. 5, 2004 —  When Massachusetts’ highest court legalized same-sex marriages and the mayor of San Francisco began issuing marriage licenses to gay couples, it ignited a firestorm across the country. At the time, some Democrats feared such moves might create a backlash against the Democratic Party in the 2004 election. Today, many Democrats say those fears were realized. "I believe it did energize a very conservative vote," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., a former San Francisco mayor. "I think it gave them a position to rally around." Conservatives agree. "The people behind the lawsuits to strike down marriage in courts have seriously misjudged the views of the American people," said Matt Daniels, president of a public policy group called the Alliance for Marriage. A Big Impact in a Key State Conservatives in 11 states pushed forward with ballot initiatives banning same-sex marriage. All 11 passed, including in the battleground state of Ohio. Political analysts say it drew Republicans to the polls, most significantly in Ohio. According to an analysis by the ABC News Polling Unit, Ohio saw a five-point increase in turnout among conservatives between 2000 and 2004. "They sure were highly motivated to turn out the vote against gay marriage," said Ohio Democratic strategist Greg Haas. "That obviously impacted the outcome of the race by at least a couple hundred thousand votes." Bush won Ohio by only 136,000 votes. Republicans clearly tried to use the issue to win votes, whether in a Republican National Committee mailing with a picture of a man proposing to another man or in millions of phone calls. Said one Bush campaign staffer to a potential voter via telephone: "Just want to let you know that President Bush is committed to protecting the unborn, defending marriage, and preserving ‘under God’ in the Pledge of Allegiance." "In a lot of these small towns and small cities areas like where I’m from, the turnout was off the charts," Haas said. "It really was you know a very diabolically brilliant move on the part of [Bush adviser] Karl Rove and others to lay this issue out there." Conservatives argue that the ones who lay the issue before the American people are the judicial activists in Massachusetts and San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom, who issued marriage licenses to same-sex couples, although California law defines marriage as a union between a man and a woman. Gay Activists in Shock Regardless of who’s to blame, gay activists are still in shock. "Gays and lesbians are deeply hurt, heartbroken," said Cheryl Jacques, president of the Human Rights Campaign, a gay and lesbian lobbying group. "Many Americans in this country voted to discriminate against us, voted to put back in place a president who made it a hallmark of his first administration to come over and attack gay and lesbian families, to attempt to write discrimination into the United States Constitution. That hurts and that hurts a lot. I believe the day will come when voters will regret those ballot initiatives. "America is not ready for the ballot questions that were driven by the extreme right," Jacques added. "The students were given the final exam on the first day of class." Jacques argues that in the same way the United States had to be "educated" about the need for civil rights for African-Americans and women, the nation has a lot to learn about gays and lesbians. "Americans are just figuring out who their gay and lesbian neighbors, and brothers and sisters and cousins, are," she said. And while the "education" process has worked enough for there to be some progress, she added, much more work remains to be done. But Daniels sharply disagrees, noting that opposition to gay marriage is not a view held just by conservatives. "They vote that way across party lines. They vote that way at a very deep level that is about more than parties, about more than campaigns and elections," he said. "It’s a very wide and deep consensus that we have in America that kids do best with a mom and a dad and our laws should encourage that." For his part, San Francisco Mayor Newsom rejects any blame for Kerry’s loss. Maybe it was the presence of California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger in Ohio the Friday before the election, Newsom speculated defensively. "Maybe it was [Osama] bin Laden and the tapes," he said. "Maybe it was the lack of clarity or an alternative positive agenda." Since the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court originally ruled in November 2003 for same-sex marriages, while Newsom’s actions weren’t until three months later, Newsom even speculated that "maybe it was the Massachusetts Supreme Court." Democrats have not yet figured out a response on the contentious issue of same-sex marriage. Some argue it is a fundamental civil rights issue America will ultimately embrace. Others say the party is out of touch with the American people and as long as it stays that way, its members should expect to be in the minority for a long time. Copyright

Question:

> Before you accuse anyone in this newsgroup, perhaps you need to look at > the > headers of the first post in a thread to see where it came or didn’t come > from. You are the idiots by making such baseless accusations.

Whoever they are, they have ruined this a newsgroup on air travel. Faking someone else id just makes it worse. It is not baseless or idiotic to criticise the messages and their real senders. Any chance of starting a new newsgroup really about travel?!

Response:

> Before you accuse anyone in this newsgroup, perhaps you need to look at > the > headers of the first post in a thread to see where it came or didn’t come > from. You are the idiots by making such baseless accusations. > Whoever they are, they have ruined this a newsgroup on air travel. > Faking someone else id just makes it worse. > It is not baseless or idiotic to criticise the messages and their real > senders. > Any chance of starting a new newsgroup really about travel?!

I think it is about time for someone to do mass cancels of all off topic posts to r.t.a. dennis

Response:

> Whoever they are, they have ruined this a newsgroup on air travel. > Faking someone else id just makes it worse. > It is not baseless or idiotic to criticise the messages and their real > senders. > Any chance of starting a new newsgroup really about travel?!

Certainly has raised a problem, and illustrated one of the real weak points of newsgroups like this. This group has been useful enough to me in the past, however, that I’m not ready to be pushed out of it, not just yet, anyway.   My filter list for the group now extends to several hundred lines which auto-kill many of the worst-offending topics, as well as many key words ("Clinton", "Bush", "Kerry", "Rove", just for starters), and some of the most unpleasant posters, who won’t get through no matter what they post on. A few months from now I hope to be able to delete all of these filters, and start over.

Response:

>I think it is about time for someone to do mass cancels of all off topic >posts to r.t.a.

That probably isn’t very effective. Most NSPs have long since stopped honoring cancels as they are easily spoofed. Even if they did work, it just escalates. Best thing to do is ignore them and not respond to those threads. That and set up some good filters for the more obvious words. Eventually they go on to another group to look for a reaction.

Response:

Best thing to do is ignore them and not respond to those threads. That and set up some good filters for the more obvious words. Eventually they go on to another group to look for a reaction. Thats probably the Best.   Ignore and Time. Really sucks. RTA has been a big help to me in the past.

Response:

I think JF may be on to something – misc.travel.air-industry – it is a moderated newsgroup that has apparently "died."  Let’s try to reactivate it. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Before you accuse anyone in this newsgroup, perhaps you need to look at >> the >> headers of the first post in a thread to see where it came or didn’t >> come >> from. You are the idiots by making such baseless accusations. > Whoever they are, they have ruined this a newsgroup on air travel. > Faking someone else id just makes it worse. > It is not baseless or idiotic to criticise the messages and their real > senders. > Any chance of starting a new newsgroup really about travel?! > I think it is about time for someone to do mass cancels of all off topic > posts to r.t.a. > dennis

Response:

> I think JF may be on to something – misc.travel.air-industry – it is a > moderated newsgroup that has apparently "died."  Let’s try to reactivate it.

Now there’s a laugh – JF Mezei wouldn’t be allowed anywhere *near* a moderated newsgroup.  After all, his relentless off – topic trolling here is one of the reasons rta is in the sorry shape it is… — Best Greg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Jeff >>> Before you accuse anyone in this newsgroup, perhaps you need to look at >>> the >>> headers of the first post in a thread to see where it came or didn’t >>> come >>> from. You are the idiots by making such baseless accusations. >> Whoever they are, they have ruined this a newsgroup on air travel. >> Faking someone else id just makes it worse. >> It is not baseless or idiotic to criticise the messages and their real >> senders. >> Any chance of starting a new newsgroup really about travel?! > I think it is about time for someone to do mass cancels of all off topic > posts to r.t.a. > dennis

Response:

> Now there’s a laugh – JF Mezei wouldn’t be allowed anywhere *near* a > moderated newsgroup.  After all, his relentless off – topic trolling here is > one of the reasons rta is in the sorry shape it is…

Apart from your constant insults and verbatim reposting  of Nomen Nescio’s posts, what have you contributed to this newsgroup that was air related ??????

Response:

>> Now there’s a laugh – JF Mezei wouldn’t be allowed anywhere *near* a > moderated newsgroup.  After all, his relentless off – topic trolling here is > one of the reasons rta is in the sorry shape it is… >Apart from your constant insults and verbatim reposting  of Nomen Nescio’s >posts, what have you contributed to this newsgroup that was air related ??????

It really galls you, JF/John Doe/nobody, that someone can see you for who you really are, doesn’t it? You have managed to fool a lot of people in a lot of newsgroups, but you can’t fool all the people all the time.

Response:

>> Now there’s a laugh – JF Mezei wouldn’t be allowed anywhere *near* a > moderated newsgroup.  After all, his relentless off – topic trolling here is > one of the reasons rta is in the sorry shape it is… >Apart from your constant insults and verbatim reposting  of Nomen Nescio’s >posts, what have you contributed to this newsgroup that was air related ??????

Laughing at you is a great contribution. Haven’t you heard?  Laughter is the best medicine.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Now there’s a laugh – JF Mezei wouldn’t be allowed anywhere *near* a >> moderated newsgroup.  After all, his relentless off – topic trolling here is >> one of the reasons rta is in the sorry shape it is… >Apart from your constant insults and verbatim reposting  of Nomen Nescio’s >posts, what have you contributed to this newsgroup that was air related ?????? > Laughing at you is a great contribution. > Haven’t you heard?  Laughter is the best medicine.

Yup…it’s true…it sure beats foaming at the mouth…I mean who would YOU rather be – Sheryl Mexic or Connie Wong…??? — Best Greg

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> Now there’s a laugh – JF Mezei wouldn’t be allowed anywhere *near* a > >> moderated newsgroup.  After all, his relentless off – topic trolling >here is > >> one of the reasons rta is in the sorry shape it is… > >Apart from your constant insults and verbatim reposting  of Nomen >Nescio’s > >posts, what have you contributed to this newsgroup that was air related >?????? > Laughing at you is a great contribution. > Haven’t you heard?  Laughter is the best medicine. >Yup…it’s true…it sure beats foaming at the mouth…I mean who would YOU >rather be – Sheryl Mexic or Connie Wong…???

Maybe we can get Miss Connie Wong to chop JF up into 100 pieces and serve him to Sheryl at Miyako for lunch…..

Response:

Hi all Just wondering if we still can call this newsgroup rec.travel.air. This week especially I have found less on here to do with air than ever before. Michael

Response:

> Hi all > Just wondering if we still can call this newsgroup rec.travel.air. > This week especially I have found less on here to do with air than > ever before.

I pledge to do my part. When JF Mezei and his fellow hatemongers spam an off-topic thread here, from now on I’ll ignore it.

Response:

> Hi all > Just wondering if we still can call this newsgroup rec.travel.air. > This week especially I have found less on here to do with air than > ever before. > I pledge to do my part. When JF Mezei and his fellow hatemongers spam an > off-topic thread here, from now on I’ll ignore it.

Count me in, too.  I’ll try to ignore JF et al.  Maybe we can make rec.travel.air just that again. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Before you accuse anyone in this newsgroup, perhaps you need to look at the headers of the first post in a thread to see where it came or didn’t come from. You are the idiots by making such baseless accusations.

Response:

> Before you accuse anyone in this newsgroup, perhaps you need to look at > the > headers of the first post in a thread to see where it came or didn’t come > from. You are the idiots by making such baseless accusations.

I don’t care where the original post came from. They’re cross-posted here and they’ve absolutely destroyed this group.

Response:

Question:

why they have censorred > this information from their readers, viewers and listeners; and contact > every Country’s Government in the World and ask them why they support > the censorship of this Truth about the 1976 US Military Study that the > US Congress conducted to Improve US Air Travel Security in 1976.

I think it probably has less to do with censorship and more to do with the fact that you come across sounding like you belong in a mental hospital. Are you the same person that posts every now and then about how the government is following you? Also, a bit of advice.  Just blame the Republicans.  There are plenty of Democrats that would latch on to your story if you didn’t also slam them. This is just the kind of story they would bite at. Matt

Response:

   In 1976 I took part in a US Congressional Commissioned Military Study to Improve US Air Travel Security while stationed on Strassberg Kasern in Idar-Oberstein,W.Germany assigned to C-Battery 2/81st FA, US Army 1975-76. The purpose of the Study was to Identify Security Lapses and submit Corrective Actions to the US Congress. The Security Lapses that were used on September 11,2001 are the same ones that were submitted to the US Congress for Correcting 25 Years before.    In June 2002 I took a polygraph exam in concerns to my taking part in this Study, it was given by a Mr.Weller who is a Retired Canadian Army Officer who was trained by the US Army as a Military Polygraph Examiner and the Exam I was given is the same one that the US Government uses;  I met the US Government’s Standard for telling the Truth and Passed. The results are posted on the web site that I put online out of frustration with the Censorship of this information by the US media; there are of National Defense, Carolyn Parrish, MP and former Vice Chair of the International NATO Executive, Daniel Ellsberg and others to get this information into the media. There is a letter from George Bush’s Church from a Janet Horman who wanted paper copies sent so she could get them to Sen.Graham-D for the first US Government 9-11-01 Investigation and other information about the Study; like, the names of the other participants, there were around 100 of us that took part from my unit. It is located at: www.codenamegrillfire.com .    In the fall of 2003 I contacted a Mr.Berg after reading an article about him Suing the Bush Administration and he had my information investigated and verified to use to Sue the President of the United States with Racketeering. The Affidavit  I gave for the Lawsuit and the Lawsuit text are posted on my web site, with my information being Count III of the Lawsuit text.    Will you review the information on the web site and help in locating the other particiapnts so that they can tell what they know as well as contacting US and other WTO media outlets about why they have censorred this information from their readers, viewers and listeners; and contact every Country’s Government in the World and ask them why they support the censorship of this Truth about the 1976 US Military Study that the US Congress conducted to Improve US Air Travel Security in 1976.    The importance of this information is: that; it Proves that John Kerry and the Democrats – George Bush and the Republicans knew that US Air Travel Security needed to be Improved in 1976 (that is why they conducted the Study) They had sufficient information to Remedy the Security Lapses (the Corrective Actions that were sent to the US Congress) Billions of Dollars in American Tax Payer’s Money and 25 years to "Just Begin" to Implement the Security Upgrades and Improvements from Their Own Study to do just that: Improve US Air Travel Security in 1976. And, "After all, 25 Years is; a Quarter of a Century" and if John Kerry and the Democrats – George Bush and the Republicans couldnot act upon Their #1 Governmental Responcibilty "National Security" in that amount of Time; it is "Not" an International Legal Reason for any Military Action let alone this Democratic and Republican Political Party 100 Year World War.    Also; any one with media contacts with Al Jazeera or any other Arabic media outlet will you get this information about the 1976 US Military Study and the web site to them so that they can tell the People of the Nation of Islam that the Military Actions that the US Congress is carrying out on them are Illegal and can be Legally Challenged in the Security Counsel of the United Nations and have Sanctions brought against the US Congress for Their International Criminal Activities.    US Defense Department Intelligence Operative "Grillfire" aka US Federal Agent McNiven

Response:

Question:

> So the Democratic Party needs to stop alienating these voters for no reason, > especially because there is little that the president can do regarding these > issues. > 1. The gun laws will never change. Accept the fact that the 2nd amendment > provisions for an armed militia will be intentionally misinterpreted by > people that want to own machine guns. There is no upside in trying to change > this. You will never disconnect hunting and sport shooting from assault > weapons, the NRA is too strong.

Why do you think the 2nd Amendment applies to keeping weapons for hunting and sport shooting?  It applied to the weapons of the 18th century, why would it not apply to the weapons of modern times? The constitutional definition of "militia" did not change, did it? Do you think they are referring to the National Guard?  The goal of the first 10 amendments was freedom from government oppression.

Response:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1         And this thread has what to do with air travel…?                                                         BL. – — Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead!  | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto   PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569  F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBi9ndyBkZmuMZ8L8RAjfAAKDSxQss0vzaPIkBIm6rJIu1ilhO1gCfbAgB 3/u61PpnNX4vEG5os1uup0E= =1Cjp —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Response:

>>"vast majority"?  51 percent was the last number. A majority, yes, but >"vast"?? >Looking at the map, red represents a huge majority of territory. Looking at >the map, the blue lacks representation in huge areas of the land. >The people in the bible belt and texas clearly have the power.

The population shift affects the distribution of House seats and thus Electoral College voters, see 2004 versus 2000: http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/electoral.college/inde… gld

Response:

> Being a US citizen, I am disgusted with the results. > I attribute much of the problem to one issue voters.

So the Democratic Party needs to stop alienating these voters for no reason, especially because there is little that the president can do regarding these issues. 1. The gun laws will never change. Accept the fact that the 2nd amendment provisions for an armed militia will be intentionally misinterpreted by people that want to own machine guns. There is no upside in trying to change this. You will never disconnect hunting and sport shooting from assault weapons, the NRA is too strong. 2. Forget abortion. The issue is not abortion anyway, since if the pro-lifer’s were serious about reducing abortion they’d be in favor of birth control and sex education. There is nothing that can be done to stop abortion, other than to pass a constitutional amendment, which would be damn near impossible. Even if Roe v. Wade is repealed, which is now likely, abortion will still be available in most states. No need to mention it, and if asked, Kerry should have said that as a Catholic, he opposes abortion, and that unlike W he never got a girl pregnant and paid for an illegal abortion. 3. Embryonic stem cell research. Bush is out of touch with his base on this one. Kerry should have brought up that he support the position of Nancy Reagan. 4. Gay marriage is a big issue to many voters. Gavin Newsome did Kerry no favor with his sanctioning of gay marriage, since opposition to it cuts across political parties. Why raise all these hot-button issues, which are really minor issues, that alienate voters? It is clear that voters will willingly vote against their own economic interest in order to make a statement about these issues. The Democrats need to learn from the Republicans. It is hopeless to educate voters on issues, they are unwilling or unable to understand the intricacies of economics, geo-politics, etc.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>> Looking at the red map of the USA, it shows that the vast majority of >>>>> americans actually support the war crimes and human rights abuses >>>>> committed by >>>>> the Bush regime, and there are only islands of blue where people are >>>>> more >>>>> educated about world affairs and realise how much a mistake it would >>>>> be >>>>> to >>>>> keep the bush regime in office. >>>>JF, fuck you. I live in the red area and I am highly educated. Far more >>>>than >>>>you. >>>>You know one reason why Bush won tonight, JF? People like you. For the >>>>past >>>>4 years, everyday folks have had obnoxious assholes lecturing them about >>>>politics in places they don’t want to hear it. Places like RTA. The vast >>>>majority of those lecturing assholes have been against Bush. Regular, >>>>everyday folks don’t respond well to lecturing assholes, JF. That should >>>>be >>>>common sense. >>> Not so fast. >>Yes, it was that fast. Too bad you couldn’t cancel the message. >>I voted for Kerry, numbskull. But I also understand the reason why he lost >>and refuse to fabricate lame excuses like "we wuz robbed!" That’s >>something >>genuine losers do. >>John Kerry lost because of obnoxious blowhards from the Michael Moore wing >>of the political spectrum. Scumbag George "I’ll destroy the British and >>Indonesian economies to enrich myself" Soros decided he was going to buy >>the >>election, and foul propagandists like Michael Moore who routinely mock and >>belittle Americans were feted by the DNC. Meanwhile, foreign newspapers >>asked their readers to harass everyday folks in the American heartland. I >>can certainly understand why most people decided not to vote for Kerry. >>Rove >>didn’t bring Kerry down, his fringe so-called "allies" did. If Kerry had >>publicly disassociated himself from these clowns, he would have won >>easily. > You are full of shit.

Hey shithead, You try to pull a typical Repulican trick by cleverly EDITED my response. Here is my Full response: You are full of shit. Bush won because of the so-called "moral values" which turn out to be: God, Guns, and Gays. What’s your response?

Response:

>>"vast majority"?  51 percent was the last number. A majority, yes, but >"vast"?? > Looking at the map, red represents a huge majority of territory. Looking at > the map, the blue lacks representation in huge areas of the land.

Oh, I thought you meant a "vast majority" of people, not land. I guess I just wrong to think that a "vast majority" meant much more than 51 percent of the voters. Mea culpa. If Alaska had gone to Kerry, would you have changed your mind? After all that state has a lot of land, but only a small percentage of voters. I don’t deny that Bush will probably win the election, only that it doesn’t seem like this is a "vast majority" > Consider how Ohio voted for a proposal to restrict marriage to union between > male and female. The people were so adament about this that they didn’t bother > considering the implications of the second sentence which prohibits the Ohio > govt from giving any of the married rights onto unmarried people. What happens > to normal/hetero couples who are unmarried but live together ?

Why should hetero couples living together have the benefits of marriage without being married?  I think they did consider that sentence.

Response:

> > The people in the bible belt and texas clearly have the power. > Or maybe Ohio

No. The minute Bush is told he doesn’t have to move out of white house, he will forget about ohio and concentrate on continued implementation of cheney/rumsfeld/wolfowitz/ashkroft’s agendas. They’ll worry about ohio and florida in 2007 to prepare for the 2008 election.

Response:

> Why should hetero couples living together have the benefits of marriage > without being married?  I think they did consider that sentence.

Most civilised nations have laws which grant equal civil/tax rights to couples who have lived together for a certain amount of time. (eg: consider them to be married from a civil/tax purpose, especially if they have children when it comes to custody/responsabilities). So that Ohio referendum went so far to ban gay marriage that it also affected normal couple rights.

Response:

>>Why should hetero couples living together have the benefits of marriage >without being married?  I think they did consider that sentence. > Most civilised nations have laws which grant equal civil/tax rights to couples > who have lived together for a certain amount of time. (eg: consider them to be > married from a civil/tax purpose, especially if they have children when it > comes to custody/responsabilities). > So that Ohio referendum went so far to ban gay marriage that it also affected > normal couple rights.

If they want the rights of married couples, why don’t they just get married? Do you not think the people of Ohio also have a goal of giving couples benefits only to married couples?

Response:

> Looking at the red map of the USA, it shows that the vast majority of > americans actually support the war crimes and human rights abuses > committed by > the Bush regime, and there are only islands of blue where people are more > educated about world affairs and realise how much a mistake it would be to > keep the bush regime in office.

JF, fuck you. I live in the red area and I am highly educated. Far more than you. You know one reason why Bush won tonight, JF? People like you. For the past 4 years, everyday folks have had obnoxious assholes lecturing them about politics in places they don’t want to hear it. Places like RTA. The vast majority of those lecturing assholes have been against Bush. Regular, everyday folks don’t respond well to lecturing assholes, JF. That should be common sense.

Response:

> Why should hetero couples living together have the benefits of marriage > without being married?  I think they did consider that sentence. > Most civilised nations

I see you’ve been up all night again posting off-topic crap to Usenet, JF. On a weekday. When was the last time you were on a commercial flight?

Response:

> JF, fuck you. I live in the red area and I am highly educated. Far more than > you.

I like these self-described "highly educated" statements. Well-trained monkey perhaps?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Looking at the red map of the USA, it shows that the vast majority of >americans actually support the war crimes and human rights abuses committed by >the Bush regime, and there are only islands of blue where people are more >educated about world affairs and realise how much a mistake it would be to >keep the bush regime in office. >The only hope now would be quick impeachement process that would be >sufficiently ahead at the time the electoral college has to vote to cause that >college to declate the bush regime unfit to rule. >Hopefully the DNC will kick Kerry out and give him some teaching job somewhere >and IMMEDIATLY choose a new STRONG leader who can CONSTANTLY oppose the bush >regime during the next 4 years, as opposed to some guy who supported the bush >regime for 3 years and then had to find some politically correct way to >justify a polite opposition to that regime. >International relations will be REALLY strained now that other countroes have >lost hope that this is just a glitch. The re-election of a war criminal regime >with just a wide margin means that this isn’t a glitch, but really reflects >popular deep rooted support for those dark ages victorian policies. >I find it ironic that bible toting anti-abortion fundamentalist americans >(republicans) would soppose abbortion to such an extent that they even want to >declare the destruction of test-tube eggs as "murder", yet, they encourage >their government to kill adult and children humans in Iraq. >Murder is wrong. Invasions are wrong. Lies are wrong. Yes, the american public >has voted to keep a government which has consistently performed those crimes.

So true, nobody Being a US citizen, I am disgusted with the results. I attribute much of the problem to one issue voters. The Evangelical Christians say: "bush told us that God told him to run for President. Well, that’s all they need to know–nver mind the issues. The Gun nuts like the Republicans for protecting their right to buy assault rifles, machine guns, etc. That’s all they need to know. Bush is anti-abortion–another single issue. Bush is against stem cell research–another single issue. Bush is against gay marriages–another single issue.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "vast majority"?  51 percent was the last number. A majority, yes, but > "vast"?? >Looking at the map, red represents a huge majority of territory. Looking at >the map, the blue lacks representation in huge areas of the land. >The people in the bible belt and texas clearly have the power. >As just as the Bush regime governed the last 4 years as if they had an >absolute majority, they will continue to govern the same way, forgetting that >they won the election by a thread. And that is what is important. Because the >Bush regime will impose the victorian values desired by one portion of >americans onto all americans. And the Bush regime will continue to conduct its >international affairs as if there were no international law and need to >respect human rights. >The last 4 years have allowed fanatic religious extremism to surface in the >USA. How bad will it get over the next 4 years ? >Consider how Ohio voted for a proposal to restrict marriage to union between >male and female. The people were so adament about this that they didn’t bother >considering the implications of the second sentence which prohibits the Ohio >govt from giving any of the married rights onto unmarried people. What happens >to normal/hetero couples who are unmarried but live together ? >This is like feeding a hungry dog a piece of steak with something in it. The >dog will jump on the steak without considering what might be hidden in it.

Not so fast. electoral votes: Bush 254 Kerry 252 Ohio electoral votes-20 There are 200,000 provisional ballots to be counted in Ohio. Ohio has ten days to complete the count. Electoral votes are all that counts.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Looking at the red map of the USA, it shows that the vast majority of > americans actually support the war crimes and human rights abuses > committed by > the Bush regime, and there are only islands of blue where people are more > educated about world affairs and realise how much a mistake it would be to > keep the bush regime in office. >JF, fuck you. I live in the red area and I am highly educated. Far more than >you. >You know one reason why Bush won tonight, JF? People like you. For the past >4 years, everyday folks have had obnoxious assholes lecturing them about >politics in places they don’t want to hear it. Places like RTA. The vast >majority of those lecturing assholes have been against Bush. Regular, >everyday folks don’t respond well to lecturing assholes, JF. That should be >common sense.

Not so fast. electoral votes: Bush 254 Kerry 252 Ohio electoral votes-20 There are 200,000 provisional ballots to be counted in Ohio. Ohio has ten days to complete the count.

Response:

>> JF, fuck you. I live in the red area and I am highly educated. Far more than > you. >I like these self-described "highly educated" statements. >Well-trained monkey perhaps?

Good one, devil

Response:

> JF, fuck you. I live in the red area and I am highly educated. Far more > than > you. > I like these self-described "highly educated" statements.

Thanks! > Well-trained monkey perhaps?

Wahhhh!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Looking at the red map of the USA, it shows that the vast majority of >> americans actually support the war crimes and human rights abuses >> committed by >> the Bush regime, and there are only islands of blue where people are >> more >> educated about world affairs and realise how much a mistake it would be >> to >> keep the bush regime in office. >JF, fuck you. I live in the red area and I am highly educated. Far more >than >you. >You know one reason why Bush won tonight, JF? People like you. For the >past >4 years, everyday folks have had obnoxious assholes lecturing them about >politics in places they don’t want to hear it. Places like RTA. The vast >majority of those lecturing assholes have been against Bush. Regular, >everyday folks don’t respond well to lecturing assholes, JF. That should >be >common sense. > Not so fast.

Yes, it was that fast. Too bad you couldn’t cancel the message. I voted for Kerry, numbskull. But I also understand the reason why he lost and refuse to fabricate lame excuses like "we wuz robbed!" That’s something genuine losers do. John Kerry lost because of obnoxious blowhards from the Michael Moore wing of the political spectrum. Scumbag George "I’ll destroy the British and Indonesian economies to enrich myself" Soros decided he was going to buy the election, and foul propagandists like Michael Moore who routinely mock and belittle Americans were feted by the DNC. Meanwhile, foreign newspapers asked their readers to harass everyday folks in the American heartland. I can certainly understand why most people decided not to vote for Kerry. Rove didn’t bring Kerry down, his fringe so-called "allies" did. If Kerry had publicly disassociated himself from these clowns, he would have won easily.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> Looking at the red map of the USA, it shows that the vast majority of >>> americans actually support the war crimes and human rights abuses >>> committed by >>> the Bush regime, and there are only islands of blue where people are >>> more >>> educated about world affairs and realise how much a mistake it would be >>> to >>> keep the bush regime in office. >>JF, fuck you. I live in the red area and I am highly educated. Far more >>than >>you. >>You know one reason why Bush won tonight, JF? People like you. For the >>past >>4 years, everyday folks have had obnoxious assholes lecturing them about >>politics in places they don’t want to hear it. Places like RTA. The vast >>majority of those lecturing assholes have been against Bush. Regular, >>everyday folks don’t respond well to lecturing assholes, JF. That should >>be >>common sense. > Not so fast. >Yes, it was that fast. Too bad you couldn’t cancel the message. >I voted for Kerry, numbskull. But I also understand the reason why he lost >and refuse to fabricate lame excuses like "we wuz robbed!" That’s something >genuine losers do. >John Kerry lost because of obnoxious blowhards from the Michael Moore wing >of the political spectrum. Scumbag George "I’ll destroy the British and >Indonesian economies to enrich myself" Soros decided he was going to buy the >election, and foul propagandists like Michael Moore who routinely mock and >belittle Americans were feted by the DNC. Meanwhile, foreign newspapers >asked their readers to harass everyday folks in the American heartland. I >can certainly understand why most people decided not to vote for Kerry. Rove >didn’t bring Kerry down, his fringe so-called "allies" did. If Kerry had >publicly disassociated himself from these clowns, he would have won easily.

You are full of shit. Bush won because of the so-called "moral values" which turn out to be: God, Guns, and Gays.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>> Looking at the red map of the USA, it shows that the vast majority of >>>> americans actually support the war crimes and human rights abuses >>>> committed by >>>> the Bush regime, and there are only islands of blue where people are >>>> more >>>> educated about world affairs and realise how much a mistake it would >>>> be >>>> to >>>> keep the bush regime in office. >>>JF, fuck you. I live in the red area and I am highly educated. Far more >>>than >>>you. >>>You know one reason why Bush won tonight, JF? People like you. For the >>>past >>>4 years, everyday folks have had obnoxious assholes lecturing them about >>>politics in places they don’t want to hear it. Places like RTA. The vast >>>majority of those lecturing assholes have been against Bush. Regular, >>>everyday folks don’t respond well to lecturing assholes, JF. That should >>>be >>>common sense. >> Not so fast. >Yes, it was that fast. Too bad you couldn’t cancel the message. >I voted for Kerry, numbskull. But I also understand the reason why he lost >and refuse to fabricate lame excuses like "we wuz robbed!" That’s >something >genuine losers do. >John Kerry lost because of obnoxious blowhards from the Michael Moore wing >of the political spectrum. Scumbag George "I’ll destroy the British and >Indonesian economies to enrich myself" Soros decided he was going to buy >the >election, and foul propagandists like Michael Moore who routinely mock and >belittle Americans were feted by the DNC. Meanwhile, foreign newspapers >asked their readers to harass everyday folks in the American heartland. I >can certainly understand why most people decided not to vote for Kerry. >Rove >didn’t bring Kerry down, his fringe so-called "allies" did. If Kerry had >publicly disassociated himself from these clowns, he would have won >easily. > You are full of shit.

The truth hurts. The DNC better weed these assclowns from their midst pretty quick: http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_november_3_2004/

Response:

> "vast majority"?  51 percent was the last number. A majority, yes, but > "vast"?? > Looking at the map, red represents a huge majority of territory. Looking > at > the map, the blue lacks representation in huge areas of the land.

Map represents area, not population. > The people in the bible belt and texas clearly have the power.

Or maybe Ohio > As just as the Bush regime governed the last 4 years as if they had an > absolute majority, they will continue to govern the same way, forgetting > that > they won the election by a thread. And that is what is important. Because > the > Bush regime will impose the victorian values desired by one portion of > americans onto all americans. And the Bush regime will continue to conduct > its > international affairs as if there were no international law and need to > respect human rights.

Indeed. I suspect it will be worse now. As Bush will see that people in America actually approve of his crimes. > The last 4 years have allowed fanatic religious extremism to surface in > the > USA. How bad will it get over the next 4 years ?

Much, much worse . I can’t believe *anybody* actually voted for this bigot. Nevermind 51% Personally I would hope that the UK government would cut all ties with the USA. But that’s not going to happen

Response:

> "vast majority"?  51 percent was the last number. A majority, yes, but > "vast"??

Looking at the map, red represents a huge majority of territory. Looking at the map, the blue lacks representation in huge areas of the land. The people in the bible belt and texas clearly have the power. As just as the Bush regime governed the last 4 years as if they had an absolute majority, they will continue to govern the same way, forgetting that they won the election by a thread. And that is what is important. Because the Bush regime will impose the victorian values desired by one portion of americans onto all americans. And the Bush regime will continue to conduct its international affairs as if there were no international law and need to respect human rights. The last 4 years have allowed fanatic religious extremism to surface in the USA. How bad will it get over the next 4 years ? Consider how Ohio voted for a proposal to restrict marriage to union between male and female. The people were so adament about this that they didn’t bother considering the implications of the second sentence which prohibits the Ohio govt from giving any of the married rights onto unmarried people. What happens to normal/hetero couples who are unmarried but live together ? This is like feeding a hungry dog a piece of steak with something in it. The dog will jump on the steak without considering what might be hidden in it.

Response:

> Looking at the red map of the USA, it shows that the vast majority

"vast majority"?  51 percent was the last number. A majority, yes, but "vast"??   of > americans actually support the war crimes and human rights abuses committed by > the Bush regime, and there are only islands of blue where people are more > educated about world affairs and realise how much a mistake it would be to > keep the bush regime in office. > The only hope now would be quick impeachement process that would be > sufficiently ahead at the time the electoral college has to vote to cause that > college to declate the bush regime unfit to rule.

That would be an interesting issue, since if he were kicked out of his current office, does this make him ineligible to regain the office in January, based on the election results?  Would an impeachment change how the electoral college could vote?

Response:

Looking at the red map of the USA, it shows that the vast majority of americans actually support the war crimes and human rights abuses committed by the Bush regime, and there are only islands of blue where people are more educated about world affairs and realise how much a mistake it would be to keep the bush regime in office. The only hope now would be quick impeachement process that would be sufficiently ahead at the time the electoral college has to vote to cause that college to declate the bush regime unfit to rule. Hopefully the DNC will kick Kerry out and give him some teaching job somewhere and IMMEDIATLY choose a new STRONG leader who can CONSTANTLY oppose the bush regime during the next 4 years, as opposed to some guy who supported the bush regime for 3 years and then had to find some politically correct way to justify a polite opposition to that regime. International relations will be REALLY strained now that other countroes have lost hope that this is just a glitch. The re-election of a war criminal regime with just a wide margin means that this isn’t a glitch, but really reflects popular deep rooted support for those dark ages victorian policies. I find it ironic that bible toting anti-abortion fundamentalist americans (republicans) would soppose abbortion to such an extent that they even want to declare the destruction of test-tube eggs as "murder", yet, they encourage their government to kill adult and children humans in Iraq. Murder is wrong. Invasions are wrong. Lies are wrong. Yes, the american public has voted to keep a government which has consistently performed those crimes.

Response:

Question:

>He responded by fighting a war with war. That’s what warriors do. Just >because you can’t see the effects of the war on his people because you >don’t live there doesn’t make it any less real. It became real to you on >September 11, but it was real long before then.

If the Muslims had left the Maronite Christians in Lebanon alone, if they had left Israel alone, if they gave equality to the Copts in Egypt, if they did not persecute the Bahai’s in Iran… they would not have had any "real" problems. Nobody has been pushing the Muslims around and picking on them out of pure spite. Any conflict in their part of the world is the consequence of their hatred and fanaticism. In any case, an event such as that of September 11, 2001, means that it is not America’s turn to engage in self-doubt or soul-searching. It is time for it to proceed boldly, in confidence of the rightness of its cause of self-defence. Instead, it is time for all parts of the Muslim world to abandon completely any monkey business – like the genocide in Sudan, or even the murderous riots in Nigeria on the occasion of the attempt at a Miss World pageant there. If they have any legitimate grievances, this is not really an opportune time to advance them. John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html

Response:

>After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. >I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no >madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a >freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his >home

Bin Laden is a Saudi national. If the Saudi royal family, long-time friends of the Bush clan, want to allow US troops on their soil, let him hash out his grievances with them. As far as Israel is concerned, the last I checked, they had no presence in Saudi Arabia, military or otherwise. > and who can blame him?!?

I can. Whatever moral capital he may have ever possessed  was squandered forever at the moment when Mohammed Atta flew AA Flight 11 into the North Tower of the WTC (no doubt shouting "Allahu akbar!"). There is absolutely nothing "noble" about the wanton murder of non-combatants, regardless of the motive or the supposed righteousness of one’s cause, and strategically, it can be argued that the 9/11 attacks achieved the opposite of their goal, rendering them useless as well as evil.

Response:

> After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. > I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no > madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a > freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his > home and who can blame him?!?

Me — Freedom of thought entails no "Intellectual Property".

Response:

> You got that one on the knocker! > They do not > even want to consider the fact that American media are liars and puppets of > Bush and his jews!

Do you play with your puppet? "Puppet Man" sung by Tom Jones [Backup girls voices] Puppet man Puppet ma-an Puppet man Puppet ma-an [Enter Jones Vocals] Baby, Baby you know it’s true I’m a puppet just for you I’ll do any little thing you say I wouldn’t have it any other way Take my heart and take my soul I’m givin’ you complete control If you wanna see me do my thing, Baby pull my string Huh, yea [Backup Girls next section] Puppet man, puppet man-an [enter Jones] Baby, Baby, I’m your sweet pet I’m just your personal marionette Wind me up and let me go Don’t you know I’m a one man show? Raise your finger and I’ll perform I’ll crack a jack till’ the crack a dawn If you wanna see me do my thing, baby pull my string [alternates between Jones and backup girls] Pu-pa-pu-pa-pu-pa-pu-pa Pu-pa-pu-pa-pu-pa-pu-pa Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-na-na-na Shna- na-na-na-na-na-na Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-na-na-na Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-na-na-na Shna- na-na-na-na-na-na Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na [backup girls] Puppet man, puppet ma-an [Enter Jones] Baby, Baby I’m warning you, satisfaction guaranteed Anytime you feel uptight I’m at your service morning noon or night I do whatcha’ want me to Cause I’m a puppet just for you But if you wanna see me do my thing Baby pull my string [Alternates between backup girls and Jones] Pu-pa-pu-pa-pu-pa-pu-pa Pu-pa-pu-pa-pu-pa-pu-pa Shna- na-na-na-na-na-na Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na Pu-pa-pu-pa-pu-pa-pu-pa Pu-pa-pu-pa-pu-pa-pu-pa Shna- na-na-na-na-na-na Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na [Jones finishes] Puppet man Baby, I’m your puppet man Ya I might even… If you pull my string I’ll do anything Baby, baby I’m your puppet man Can’t do anything unless ya pull my string Love ya, Love ya, Love ya, Love ya! Down deep in your soul Do anything, I might even love you Wow-oh [FADE]

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The position of Bin Laden is easy to understand. > Indeed. Megalomania with a streak of old-fashioned greed. > If Assama’s cause is so righteous and due to Jooos and America, why is his > brand of Islam on the rampage throughout the world, in conflicts that have > nothing to do with the US or Israel? > Algeria. > India. > Indonesia. > Kosovo. > Nigeria. > Sudan. > Philippines. > And many other countries, all under the threat of fundy Muslim violence.

Algerian conflict is not inspired by Osama, and it was there when osama was born Indian oppression of muslims of Kashmir also predates osama by about a century Indonesian terrorism is local brand and  has nothing to do with Osama, it is a criminal act of a small group and should be dealt as such. Kosovo condlict is a teritorial by nature and predates WWI when this area was "given" to Serbs by British, BTW about 40% of Kosovars are Christians! Nigerian extremist elements who want to impose their own brand of Islam on Nigerians are not supported by any muslims anywhere, and Osama certainly will not support them. Sudan rulers are fascist dicators just like the israeli ones. They are not supporters of osama , and have offered to give him to US in 1993 when the offer was refused by US. Philippine fight against corruption by the island muslims has been going on for some 150 years. That country is so corrupt, that if I had to choose where to live in Philippines, I would only live in the muslim part!

Response:

>Algeria. >India. >Indonesia. >Kosovo. >Nigeria. >Sudan. >Philippines.

Add Morocco and Chechnya (although the latter is accelerated by the poor behavior of Russian troops, both "black widows" who bombed the airplanes last month were supposedly gang-rape victims and one was pregnant, helping to hide her explosives cache). >And many other countries, all under the threat of fundy Muslim violence.

And these radical Islamists have as much to do with the Islamic faith as the IRA to Roman Catholicism … gld

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> He Stirs Your Soul wrote… > After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. > I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no > madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a > freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his > home and who can blame him?!?  He spoke from his heart and from his > soul, and whenever a man does that, nobody can be against him, for he > speaks truth.  The words come from the very depths of his soul. > Bush and his puppet masters have been quick with their propaganda > brainwashing Americans that bin Ladin and the Moslems are evil, that > they hate freedom.  But this kind of charged rhetoric only works with > Americans because they are blind and brain dead just like their > president.  Americans are the evil ones, and George Bush and Dick > Cheney and Rumsfeld are the Devil. > Until Americans truly understand why they are being attacked the > attacks will continue.  But Americans will never understand because > they are idiots and their government knows that and keeps them in the > dark.  They know American minds are easy to manipulate. > With the coming attacks perhaps the Americans will begin to understand > a little bit better.  Maybe it will take 10 or 20 attacks more, but > that is okay.  Al Qaeda is not going anywhere, and neither is bin > Ladin. > The position of Bin Laden is easy to understand.  Most Americans don’t > understand and don’t care what their country is doing in the Muslim world > because their government keeps them in the dark intentionally.  So if > Muslims or Arabs want to get the attention of the American people they > have to resort to terrorism.  Unfortunately it’s the only thing that > works.  Ask Americans if they are more aware now than before 9/11. > Transcript of bin Ladin’s speech > Saturday 30 October 2004, 15:54 Makka Time, 12:54 GMT > Following is the transcript of Usama bin Ladin’s speech as it > appeared in a videotape aired by Aljazeera on Friday. In the > interests of authenticity the transcript has been left unedited. > To begin: Peace be upon he who follow the Guidance. > People of United States, this talk of mine is for you and > concerns the ideal way to prevent another Manhattan and deals > with the war and its causes and results. > Before I begin, I say to you that security is an indispensable > pillar in human life and that free men do not forfeit their > security contrary to Bush’s claims that we hate freedom. > If so, then let him explain why did not strike – for example – > Sweden. > And we know that freedom haters do not possess defiant spirits > like those of the 19 may Allah have mercy on them. > No, we fight because we are free men who do not sleep under > oppression. > We want to restore freedom to our Nation and just as you lay > waste to our Nation so shall we lay waste to yours. > But I am amazed at you. Even though we are in the fourth year > after the events of September 11, Bush is still engaged in > distortion, deception and hiding from you the real cause and > thus the reasons are still there for a repeat of what occurred. > So I shall talk to you about the story behind those events and I > shall tell you truthfully about the moments in which the > decision was taken for you to consider. > I say to you Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to > strike towers. > But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression > and tyranny of the America/Israeli coalition against our people > in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind. > The events that affected my soul in a difficult way started in > 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and > the American 6th fleet helped them in that. > And the whole world saw and heard but did not respond. > In those difficult moments many hard to describe ideas bubbled > in my soul but in the end they produced intense feelings of > rejection of tyranny and gave birth to a strong resolve to > punish the oppressors. > And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon it entered > my mind that we should punish the oppressors in kind and that we > destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what > we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women > and children. > We have not found it difficult to deal with the Bush > administration in light of the resemblance it bears to the > regimes in our countries, half of which are ruled by the > military and the other half of which are ruled by the sons of > kings and presidents. > Our experience with them is lengthy and both types are replete > with those who are characterised by pride, arrogance, greed and > misappropriation of wealth. > This resemblance began after the visits of Bush Senior to the > region at a time when some of our compatriots were dazzled by > America and hoping that these visits would have an effect on our > countries. All of a sudden he was affected by these monarchies > and military regimes and became jealous of their remaining > decades in their position to embezzle the public wealth of the > Nation without supervision or accounting. > So he took dictatorship and suppression of freedoms to his son > and they named it the Patriot Act under the pretences of > fighting terrorism. > In addition, Bush sanctioned the installing of sons as state > governors and did not forget to import expertise in election > fraud from the regions presidents to Florida to be made use of > in moments of difficulty. > All that we have mentioned has made it easy for us to provoke > and bait this administration. > And for the record, we had agreed with the Commander-General > Muhammad Ataa, Allah have mercy on him, that all the operations > should be carried out within 20 minutes before Bush and his > administration notice. > It never occurred to us that the Commander in Chief of the armed > forces would abandon 50,000 of his citizens in the twin towers > to face those great horrors alone at a time when they most > needed him. > But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking > to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more > important than occupying himself with the planes and their > butting of the skyscrapers we were given three times the period > required to execute the operations. All praise is due to Allah. > Aljazeera > http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79C6AF22-98FB-4A1C-B21F-2BC36E…

You got that one on the knocker! US uneducated public is mesmerized by CNN and jerusalem FOX. They do not even want to consider the fact that American media are liars and puppets of Bush and his jews!

Response:

> The position of Bin Laden is easy to understand.

Indeed. Megalomania with a streak of old-fashioned greed. If Assama’s cause is so righteous and due to Jooos and America, why is his brand of Islam on the rampage throughout the world, in conflicts that have nothing to do with the US or Israel? Algeria. India. Indonesia. Kosovo. Nigeria. Sudan. Philippines. And many other countries, all under the threat of fundy Muslim violence.

Response:

>I would agree with you, except for the little fact that he orchestrated the >flying of aircraft into buildings that slaughtered thousands of Americans.

You got it, Donald.  If it were in an alternate-Earth and OBL, a Saudi businessman and investor, anti-Soviet Afghan war hero and political activist were telling this to Tim Russert on "Meet The Press", September 9, 2001, it would bring some points that one can hear on most college campuses to the American political mainstream.  This is not the case. Also, consider that this may be balanced off as psy-ops with the tape by "Azzim al-Amerikki" on Wednesday, who may be Jason Pearlman of Orange Country, California.  Since I’m posting from the Air Travel newsgroup, it would be ironic if so many non-Americans are being photographed/finger- printed … politically cheap since you’re doing it to non- voters … while Pearlman is back in the US scheming and plotting.  To make border security really effective, as the 9/11 Commission found, even US citizens must present biometric passports to come home. gld

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. > >> I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no > >> madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a > >> freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his > >> home and who can blame him?!?  He spoke from his heart and from his > >> soul, and whenever a man does that, nobody can be against him, for he > >> speaks truth.  The words come from the very depths of his soul. > > I would agree with you, > I wouldn’t. Fundy Moslems > You’ve taken my words out of context. > Fuck you.

Nice talk. I was responding to the "He Stirs Your Soul" cretin you cross-posted this message to.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I would agree with you, except for the little fact that he orchestrated the > flying of aircraft into buildings that slaughtered thousands of Americans. > After that, all other bets are off, and he is a terrorist made out of > dogshit, regardless of how bad I despise President Bush or the warmongering > pricks that work for him. > I’m not saying that the US is without faults in the global theater, but any > credibility that bin Laden may have had to just "want us (America) to leave > his people alone" went right out the fucking window on September 11.

Agreed.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> He Stirs Your Soul wrote… > After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. > I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no > madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a > freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his > home and who can blame him?!?  He spoke from his heart and from his > soul, and whenever a man does that, nobody can be against him, for he > speaks truth.  The words come from the very depths of his soul. > Bush and his puppet masters have been quick with their propaganda > brainwashing Americans that bin Ladin and the Moslems are evil, that > they hate freedom.  But this kind of charged rhetoric only works with > Americans because they are blind and brain dead just like their > president.  Americans are the evil ones, and George Bush and Dick > Cheney and Rumsfeld are the Devil. > Until Americans truly understand why they are being attacked the > attacks will continue.  But Americans will never understand because > they are idiots and their government knows that and keeps them in the > dark.  They know American minds are easy to manipulate. > With the coming attacks perhaps the Americans will begin to understand > a little bit better.  Maybe it will take 10 or 20 attacks more, but > that is okay.  Al Qaeda is not going anywhere, and neither is bin > Ladin. > The position of Bin Laden is easy to understand.  Most Americans don’t > understand and don’t care what their country is doing in the Muslim world > because their government keeps them in the dark intentionally.  So if > Muslims or Arabs want to get the attention of the American people they have > to resort to terrorism.  Unfortunately it’s the only thing that works. Ask > Americans if they are more aware now than before 9/11.

It sure worked out better for Arabs after 911 didn’t it, you fuckin’ idiot. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Transcript of bin Ladin’s speech > Saturday 30 October 2004, 15:54 Makka Time, 12:54 GMT > Following is the transcript of Usama bin Ladin’s speech as it > appeared in a videotape aired by Aljazeera on Friday. In the > interests of authenticity the transcript has been left unedited. > To begin: Peace be upon he who follow the Guidance. > People of United States, this talk of mine is for you and > concerns the ideal way to prevent another Manhattan and deals > with the war and its causes and results. > Before I begin, I say to you that security is an indispensable > pillar in human life and that free men do not forfeit their > security contrary to Bush’s claims that we hate freedom. > If so, then let him explain why did not strike – for example – > Sweden. > And we know that freedom haters do not possess defiant spirits > like those of the 19 may Allah have mercy on them. > No, we fight because we are free men who do not sleep under > oppression. > We want to restore freedom to our Nation and just as you lay > waste to our Nation so shall we lay waste to yours. > But I am amazed at you. Even though we are in the fourth year > after the events of September 11, Bush is still engaged in > distortion, deception and hiding from you the real cause and > thus the reasons are still there for a repeat of what occurred. > So I shall talk to you about the story behind those events and I > shall tell you truthfully about the moments in which the > decision was taken for you to consider. > I say to you Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to > strike towers. > But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression > and tyranny of the America/Israeli coalition against our people > in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind. > The events that affected my soul in a difficult way started in > 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and > the American 6th fleet helped them in that. > And the whole world saw and heard but did not respond. > In those difficult moments many hard to describe ideas bubbled > in my soul but in the end they produced intense feelings of > rejection of tyranny and gave birth to a strong resolve to > punish the oppressors. > And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon it entered > my mind that we should punish the oppressors in kind and that we > destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what > we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women > and children. > We have not found it difficult to deal with the Bush > administration in light of the resemblance it bears to the > regimes in our countries, half of which are ruled by the > military and the other half of which are ruled by the sons of > kings and presidents. > Our experience with them is lengthy and both types are replete > with those who are characterised by pride, arrogance, greed and > misappropriation of wealth. > This resemblance began after the visits of Bush Senior to the > region at a time when some of our compatriots were dazzled by > America and hoping that these visits would have an effect on our > countries. All of a sudden he was affected by these monarchies > and military regimes and became jealous of their remaining > decades in their position to embezzle the public wealth of the > Nation without supervision or accounting. > So he took dictatorship and suppression of freedoms to his son > and they named it the Patriot Act under the pretences of > fighting terrorism. > In addition, Bush sanctioned the installing of sons as state > governors and did not forget to import expertise in election > fraud from the regions presidents to Florida to be made use of > in moments of difficulty. > All that we have mentioned has made it easy for us to provoke > and bait this administration. > And for the record, we had agreed with the Commander-General > Muhammad Ataa, Allah have mercy on him, that all the operations > should be carried out within 20 minutes before Bush and his > administration notice. > It never occurred to us that the Commander in Chief of the armed > forces would abandon 50,000 of his citizens in the twin towers > to face those great horrors alone at a time when they most > needed him. > But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking > to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more > important than occupying himself with the planes and their > butting of the skyscrapers we were given three times the period > required to execute the operations. All praise is due to Allah. > Aljazeera

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79C6AF22-98FB-4A1C-B21F-2BC36E…. htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

> After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. > I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no > madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a > freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his > home and who can blame him?!?  He spoke from his heart and from his > soul, and whenever a man does that, nobody can be against him, for he > speaks truth.  The words come from the very depths of his soul.

Just because Bush is an even bigger murdering asshole, doesn’t change or forgive the despicable actions of one of the worst killers and terrorists in history!!!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >>After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. >> >>I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no >> >>madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a >> >>freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his >> >>home and who can blame him?!?  He spoke from his heart and from his >> >>soul, and whenever a man does that, nobody can be against him, for he >> >>speaks truth.  The words come from the very depths of his soul. >> > I would agree with you, except for the little fact that he orchestrated > the >> > flying of aircraft into buildings that slaughtered thousands of > Americans. >> > After that, all other bets are off, and he is a terrorist made out of >> > dogshit, regardless of how bad I despise President Bush or the > warmongering >> > pricks that work for him. >> > I’m not saying that the US is without faults in the global theater, but > any >> > credibility that bin Laden may have had to just "want us (America) to > leave >> > his people alone" went right out the fucking window on September 11. >> He responded by fighting a war with war. That’s what warriors do. > Not against civilian targets. That’s not war, that’s cowardice. > I don’t accept it from American soldiers, I damn sure won’t accept it from > some second-rate warrior-wannabe that doesn’t even have the balls to carry > out the attacks himself, instead foments hatred through brainwashing to > get > others to do the dirty work. > He’s not a warrior. He’s a coward. >> Just >> because you can’t see the effects of the war on his people because you >> don’t live there doesn’t make it any less real. It became real to you on >> September 11, but it was real long before then. Osama is only one of >> many angry Arabs. Unless the U.S. learns to treat people better, they >> can expect more of the same. Considering they haven’t learned how to >> treat a great many of their own citizens with human decency, this is >> probably a long way off and you can expect many more terrorist >> attacks-ESPECIALLY if Bush is reelected. > You’ve begun an argument of infinite digression. Whether or not I agree > with > anything bin Laden says is irrelevant. > What *IS* relevant is that his words are completely negated by his attack > of > September 11. Yes, I understand the paradox/catch-22 of the situation, and > am fully aware of what he said: I’ve already read the entire transcript. > That doesn’t change the fact that as of September 11, he is only worthy of > a > 9mm round right between his fucking eyes, from my own gun given the > opportunity. >> Notice how he calls Bush a fucking idiot. > Yes, I did notice. Like I said, it is irrelevant if he and I agree on > anything. > I also sat and watched in horror as The Towers collapsed and took 2000 > Americans plus 343 of my brethren to their deaths. That makes him a > terrorist. > Fuck him. Fuck him eternally. > It was the only way he could get the attention of the American people. The > Americans didn’t know and didn’t care about the plight of his people. > Wouldn’t you say they are aware now?

Many are aware now and want "his people" dead now…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. > >>I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no > >>madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a > >>freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his > >>home and who can blame him?!?  He spoke from his heart and from his > >>soul, and whenever a man does that, nobody can be against him, for he > >>speaks truth.  The words come from the very depths of his soul. > > I would agree with you, except for the little fact that he orchestrated > the > > flying of aircraft into buildings that slaughtered thousands of > Americans. > > After that, all other bets are off, and he is a terrorist made out of > > dogshit, regardless of how bad I despise President Bush or the > warmongering > > pricks that work for him. > > I’m not saying that the US is without faults in the global theater, but > any > > credibility that bin Laden may have had to just "want us (America) to > leave > > his people alone" went right out the fucking window on September 11. > He responded by fighting a war with war. That’s what warriors do. > Not against civilian targets. That’s not war, that’s cowardice. > I don’t accept it from American soldiers, I damn sure won’t accept it from > some second-rate warrior-wannabe that doesn’t even have the balls to carry > out the attacks himself, instead foments hatred through brainwashing to > get > others to do the dirty work. > He’s not a warrior. He’s a coward. > Just > because you can’t see the effects of the war on his people because you > don’t live there doesn’t make it any less real. It became real to you on > September 11, but it was real long before then. Osama is only one of > many angry Arabs. Unless the U.S. learns to treat people better, they > can expect more of the same. Considering they haven’t learned how to > treat a great many of their own citizens with human decency, this is > probably a long way off and you can expect many more terrorist > attacks-ESPECIALLY if Bush is reelected. > You’ve begun an argument of infinite digression. Whether or not I agree > with > anything bin Laden says is irrelevant. > What *IS* relevant is that his words are completely negated by his attack > of > September 11. Yes, I understand the paradox/catch-22 of the situation, and > am fully aware of what he said: I’ve already read the entire transcript. > That doesn’t change the fact that as of September 11, he is only worthy of > a > 9mm round right between his fucking eyes, from my own gun given the > opportunity. > Notice how he calls Bush a fucking idiot. > Yes, I did notice. Like I said, it is irrelevant if he and I agree on > anything. > I also sat and watched in horror as The Towers collapsed and took 2000 > Americans plus 343 of my brethren to their deaths. That makes him a > terrorist. > Fuck him. Fuck him eternally.

It was the only way he could get the attention of the American people.  The Americans didn’t know and didn’t care about the plight of his people. Wouldn’t you say they are aware now?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. >>>>I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no >>>>madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a >>>>freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his >>>>home and who can blame him?!?  He spoke from his heart and from his >>>>soul, and whenever a man does that, nobody can be against him, for he >>>>speaks truth.  The words come from the very depths of his soul. >>>I would agree with you, except for the little fact that he orchestrated > the >>>flying of aircraft into buildings that slaughtered thousands of > Americans. >>>After that, all other bets are off, and he is a terrorist made out of >>>dogshit, regardless of how bad I despise President Bush or the > warmongering >>>pricks that work for him. >>>I’m not saying that the US is without faults in the global theater, but > any >>>credibility that bin Laden may have had to just "want us (America) to > leave >>>his people alone" went right out the fucking window on September 11. >>He responded by fighting a war with war. That’s what warriors do. > Not against civilian targets. That’s not war, that’s cowardice. > That puts him in the very same league as Bush. Don’t kid yourself. At > least 40,000 Iraqi civilains have been killed.

Read my words, and get back to me when you comprehend their meaning: Donald: "I’m not saying that the US is without faults in the global theater,…" …and: Donald: "After that, all other bets are off, and he is a terrorist made out of dogshit, regardless of how bad I despise President Bush or the warmongering pricks that work for him." > I don’t accept it from American soldiers, I damn sure won’t accept it from > some second-rate warrior-wannabe that doesn’t even have the balls to carry > out the attacks himself, instead foments hatred through brainwashing to get > others to do the dirty work. > Again, that is Bush, Cheney, Rove and Rumsfeld to a tee.

No argument from me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> He’s not a warrior. He’s a coward. > Again, Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Rice, Ashcroft, etc. >>Just >>because you can’t see the effects of the war on his people because you >>don’t live there doesn’t make it any less real. It became real to you on >>September 11, but it was real long before then. Osama is only one of >>many angry Arabs. Unless the U.S. learns to treat people better, they >>can expect more of the same. Considering they haven’t learned how to >>treat a great many of their own citizens with human decency, this is >>probably a long way off and you can expect many more terrorist >>attacks-ESPECIALLY if Bush is reelected. > You’ve begun an argument of infinite digression. Whether or not I agree with > anything bin Laden says is irrelevant. > What *IS* relevant is that his words are completely negated by his attack of > September 11. Yes, I understand the paradox/catch-22 of the situation, and > am fully aware of what he said: I’ve already read the entire transcript. > That doesn’t change the fact that as of September 11, he is only worthy of a > 9mm round right between his fucking eyes, from my own gun given the > opportunity. > There are at least hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, possibly millions,

that feel the exact same way about Bush, Cheney, et al. It is a question of semantics and geography. Just as if you examine things closely both Islam and Christianity are religions of fanatics. No argument from me on this point, either. >>Notice how he calls Bush a fucking idiot. > Yes, I did notice. Like I said, it is irrelevant if he and I agree on > anything. > I also sat and watched in horror as The Towers collapsed and took 2000 > Americans plus 343 of my brethren to their deaths. That makes him a > terrorist. > So is Bush in the eyes of much of the world. Osama is hardly alone. The > policies of the Bush administration are, at this moment, creating, > millions of Osamas. Just as Osama is creating millions of you.

I’m not flying airplanes into buildings. I’m pursuing a law degree to change this country from the inside. Maybe I’m pissing in the wind, maybe not. But it beats the fuck out of slaughtering ‘innocents.’ — -Donald in Austin AA #2104 Apatriot #22 Atheist FF/EMT ….and ordained minister Stork pin recipient: May 1, 2003 -Madelyn

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. >>>I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no >>>madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a >>>freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his >>>home and who can blame him?!?  He spoke from his heart and from his >>>soul, and whenever a man does that, nobody can be against him, for he >>>speaks truth.  The words come from the very depths of his soul. >>I would agree with you, except for the little fact that he orchestrated > the >>flying of aircraft into buildings that slaughtered thousands of > Americans. >>After that, all other bets are off, and he is a terrorist made out of >>dogshit, regardless of how bad I despise President Bush or the > warmongering >>pricks that work for him. >>I’m not saying that the US is without faults in the global theater, but > any >>credibility that bin Laden may have had to just "want us (America) to > leave >>his people alone" went right out the fucking window on September 11. >He responded by fighting a war with war. That’s what warriors do. > Not against civilian targets. That’s not war, that’s cowardice.

That puts him in the very same league as Bush. Don’t kid yourself. At least 40,000 Iraqi civilains have been killed. > I don’t accept it from American soldiers, I damn sure won’t accept it from > some second-rate warrior-wannabe that doesn’t even have the balls to carry > out the attacks himself, instead foments hatred through brainwashing to get > others to do the dirty work.

Again, that is Bush, Cheney, Rove and Rumsfeld to a tee. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> He’s not a warrior. He’s a coward. > Again, Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Rice, Ashcroft, etc. >Just >because you can’t see the effects of the war on his people because you >don’t live there doesn’t make it any less real. It became real to you on >September 11, but it was real long before then. Osama is only one of >many angry Arabs. Unless the U.S. learns to treat people better, they >can expect more of the same. Considering they haven’t learned how to >treat a great many of their own citizens with human decency, this is >probably a long way off and you can expect many more terrorist >attacks-ESPECIALLY if Bush is reelected. > You’ve begun an argument of infinite digression. Whether or not I agree with > anything bin Laden says is irrelevant. > What *IS* relevant is that his words are completely negated by his attack of > September 11. Yes, I understand the paradox/catch-22 of the situation, and > am fully aware of what he said: I’ve already read the entire transcript. > That doesn’t change the fact that as of September 11, he is only worthy of a > 9mm round right between his fucking eyes, from my own gun given the > opportunity. > There are at least hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, possibly millions, that feel the exact same way about Bush, Cheney, et al. It is a question of semantics and geography. Just as if you examine things closely both Islam and Christianity are religions of fanatics. >Notice how he calls Bush a fucking idiot. > Yes, I did notice. Like I said, it is irrelevant if he and I agree on > anything. > I also sat and watched in horror as The Towers collapsed and took 2000 > Americans plus 343 of my brethren to their deaths. That makes him a > terrorist.

So is Bush in the eyes of much of the world. Osama is hardly alone. The policies of the Bush administration are, at this moment, creating, millions of Osamas. Just as Osama is creating millions of you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Fuck him. Fuck him eternally.

Response:

> After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. > I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no > madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a > freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his > home and who can blame him?!?  He spoke from his heart and from his > soul, and whenever a man does that, nobody can be against him, for he > speaks truth.  The words come from the very depths of his soul.

Whilst I agree with the sentiments, really all he is is another billionaire that is trying to rule the world and will kill anyone to do it. I wouldn’t say either Osama or Bush Jnr are any better than each other… because it is the non-billionaires that suffer

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. >>I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no >>madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a >>freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his >>home and who can blame him?!?  He spoke from his heart and from his >>soul, and whenever a man does that, nobody can be against him, for he >>speaks truth.  The words come from the very depths of his soul. > I would agree with you, except for the little fact that he orchestrated the > flying of aircraft into buildings that slaughtered thousands of Americans. > After that, all other bets are off, and he is a terrorist made out of > dogshit, regardless of how bad I despise President Bush or the warmongering > pricks that work for him. > I’m not saying that the US is without faults in the global theater, but any > credibility that bin Laden may have had to just "want us (America) to leave > his people alone" went right out the fucking window on September 11. > He responded by fighting a war with war. That’s what warriors do.

Not against civilian targets. That’s not war, that’s cowardice. I don’t accept it from American soldiers, I damn sure won’t accept it from some second-rate warrior-wannabe that doesn’t even have the balls to carry out the attacks himself, instead foments hatred through brainwashing to get others to do the dirty work. He’s not a warrior. He’s a coward. > Just > because you can’t see the effects of the war on his people because you > don’t live there doesn’t make it any less real. It became real to you on > September 11, but it was real long before then. Osama is only one of > many angry Arabs. Unless the U.S. learns to treat people better, they > can expect more of the same. Considering they haven’t learned how to > treat a great many of their own citizens with human decency, this is > probably a long way off and you can expect many more terrorist > attacks-ESPECIALLY if Bush is reelected.

You’ve begun an argument of infinite digression. Whether or not I agree with anything bin Laden says is irrelevant. What *IS* relevant is that his words are completely negated by his attack of September 11. Yes, I understand the paradox/catch-22 of the situation, and am fully aware of what he said: I’ve already read the entire transcript. That doesn’t change the fact that as of September 11, he is only worthy of a 9mm round right between his fucking eyes, from my own gun given the opportunity. > Notice how he calls Bush a fucking idiot.

Yes, I did notice. Like I said, it is irrelevant if he and I agree on anything. I also sat and watched in horror as The Towers collapsed and took 2000 Americans plus 343 of my brethren to their deaths. That makes him a terrorist. Fuck him. Fuck him eternally. — -Donald in Austin AA #2104 Apatriot #22 Atheist FF/EMT ….and ordained minister Stork pin recipient: May 1, 2003 -Madelyn

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. >> I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no >> madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a >> freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his >> home and who can blame him?!?  He spoke from his heart and from his >> soul, and whenever a man does that, nobody can be against him, for he >> speaks truth.  The words come from the very depths of his soul. > I would agree with you, > I wouldn’t. Fundy Moslems

You’ve taken my words out of context. Fuck you.

Response:

He Stirs Your Soul wrote… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. > I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no > madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a > freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his > home and who can blame him?!?  He spoke from his heart and from his > soul, and whenever a man does that, nobody can be against him, for he > speaks truth.  The words come from the very depths of his soul. > Bush and his puppet masters have been quick with their propaganda > brainwashing Americans that bin Ladin and the Moslems are evil, that > they hate freedom.  But this kind of charged rhetoric only works with > Americans because they are blind and brain dead just like their > president.  Americans are the evil ones, and George Bush and Dick > Cheney and Rumsfeld are the Devil. > Until Americans truly understand why they are being attacked the > attacks will continue.  But Americans will never understand because > they are idiots and their government knows that and keeps them in the > dark.  They know American minds are easy to manipulate. > With the coming attacks perhaps the Americans will begin to understand > a little bit better.  Maybe it will take 10 or 20 attacks more, but > that is okay.  Al Qaeda is not going anywhere, and neither is bin > Ladin.

The position of Bin Laden is easy to understand.  Most Americans don’t understand and don’t care what their country is doing in the Muslim world because their government keeps them in the dark intentionally.  So if Muslims or Arabs want to get the attention of the American people they have to resort to terrorism.  Unfortunately it’s the only thing that works.  Ask Americans if they are more aware now than before 9/11. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Transcript of bin Ladin’s speech > Saturday 30 October 2004, 15:54 Makka Time, 12:54 GMT > Following is the transcript of Usama bin Ladin’s speech as it > appeared in a videotape aired by Aljazeera on Friday. In the > interests of authenticity the transcript has been left unedited. > To begin: Peace be upon he who follow the Guidance. > People of United States, this talk of mine is for you and > concerns the ideal way to prevent another Manhattan and deals > with the war and its causes and results. > Before I begin, I say to you that security is an indispensable > pillar in human life and that free men do not forfeit their > security contrary to Bush’s claims that we hate freedom. > If so, then let him explain why did not strike – for example – > Sweden. > And we know that freedom haters do not possess defiant spirits > like those of the 19 may Allah have mercy on them. > No, we fight because we are free men who do not sleep under > oppression. > We want to restore freedom to our Nation and just as you lay > waste to our Nation so shall we lay waste to yours. > But I am amazed at you. Even though we are in the fourth year > after the events of September 11, Bush is still engaged in > distortion, deception and hiding from you the real cause and > thus the reasons are still there for a repeat of what occurred. > So I shall talk to you about the story behind those events and I > shall tell you truthfully about the moments in which the > decision was taken for you to consider. > I say to you Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to > strike towers. > But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression > and tyranny of the America/Israeli coalition against our people > in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind. > The events that affected my soul in a difficult way started in > 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and > the American 6th fleet helped them in that. > And the whole world saw and heard but did not respond. > In those difficult moments many hard to describe ideas bubbled > in my soul but in the end they produced intense feelings of > rejection of tyranny and gave birth to a strong resolve to > punish the oppressors. > And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon it entered > my mind that we should punish the oppressors in kind and that we > destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what > we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women > and children. > We have not found it difficult to deal with the Bush > administration in light of the resemblance it bears to the > regimes in our countries, half of which are ruled by the > military and the other half of which are ruled by the sons of > kings and presidents. > Our experience with them is lengthy and both types are replete > with those who are characterised by pride, arrogance, greed and > misappropriation of wealth. > This resemblance began after the visits of Bush Senior to the > region at a time when some of our compatriots were dazzled by > America and hoping that these visits would have an effect on our > countries. All of a sudden he was affected by these monarchies > and military regimes and became jealous of their remaining > decades in their position to embezzle the public wealth of the > Nation without supervision or accounting. > So he took dictatorship and suppression of freedoms to his son > and they named it the Patriot Act under the pretences of > fighting terrorism. > In addition, Bush sanctioned the installing of sons as state > governors and did not forget to import expertise in election > fraud from the regions presidents to Florida to be made use of > in moments of difficulty. > All that we have mentioned has made it easy for us to provoke > and bait this administration. > And for the record, we had agreed with the Commander-General > Muhammad Ataa, Allah have mercy on him, that all the operations > should be carried out within 20 minutes before Bush and his > administration notice. > It never occurred to us that the Commander in Chief of the armed > forces would abandon 50,000 of his citizens in the twin towers > to face those great horrors alone at a time when they most > needed him. > But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking > to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more > important than occupying himself with the planes and their > butting of the skyscrapers we were given three times the period > required to execute the operations. All praise is due to Allah. > Aljazeera > http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79C6AF22-98FB-4A1C-B21F-2BC36E…

Response:

> After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. > I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no > madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a > freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his > home and who can blame him?!?  He spoke from his heart and from his > soul, and whenever a man does that, nobody can be against him, for he > speaks truth.  The words come from the very depths of his soul.

I would agree with you, except for the little fact that he orchestrated the flying of aircraft into buildings that slaughtered thousands of Americans. After that, all other bets are off, and he is a terrorist made out of dogshit, regardless of how bad I despise President Bush or the warmongering pricks that work for him. I’m not saying that the US is without faults in the global theater, but any credibility that bin Laden may have had to just "want us (America) to leave his people alone" went right out the fucking window on September 11. — -Donald in Austin AA #2104 Apatriot #22 Atheist FF/EMT ….and ordained minister Stork pin recipient: May 1, 2003 -Madelyn

Response:

>> After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. > I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no > madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a > freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his > home and who can blame him?!?  He spoke from his heart and from his > soul, and whenever a man does that, nobody can be against him, for he > speaks truth.  The words come from the very depths of his soul. > I would agree with you,

I wouldn’t. Fundy Moslems are on the warpath around the world. Fundy Moslems use Jews and now Americans as the scapegoats for their own fucked-up existence. You can’t blame the Jooos or Americans for fundy Moslems on the warpath in the Phillippines. You can’t blame the Jooos or Americans for fundy Moslems on the warpath in Thailand. You can’t blame the Jooos or Americans for fundy Moslems on the warpath in the Nigeria and most of sub-Saharan Africa. Fundy Moslems are responsible for their own problems, and rather than correct those problems they’d rather force their sick beliefs on others.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. >I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no >madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a >freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his >home and who can blame him?!?  He spoke from his heart and from his >soul, and whenever a man does that, nobody can be against him, for he >speaks truth.  The words come from the very depths of his soul. > I would agree with you, except for the little fact that he orchestrated the > flying of aircraft into buildings that slaughtered thousands of Americans. > After that, all other bets are off, and he is a terrorist made out of > dogshit, regardless of how bad I despise President Bush or the warmongering > pricks that work for him. > I’m not saying that the US is without faults in the global theater, but any > credibility that bin Laden may have had to just "want us (America) to leave > his people alone" went right out the fucking window on September 11.

He responded by fighting a war with war. That’s what warriors do. Just because you can’t see the effects of the war on his people because you don’t live there doesn’t make it any less real. It became real to you on September 11, but it was real long before then. Osama is only one of many angry Arabs. Unless the U.S. learns to treat people better, they can expect more of the same. Considering they haven’t learned how to treat a great many of their own citizens with human decency, this is probably a long way off and you can expect many more terrorist attacks-ESPECIALLY if Bush is reelected. Notice how he calls Bush a fucking idiot. For deeming the reading of a book regarding the ramming of a goat more important than the ramming of real planes and abondoning 50,000 real live American citizens when they needed him most (although he didn’t know the number was actually far less).

Response:

After reading the transcript of bin Ladin’s speech I was very moved. I really felt his struggle.  It is obvious to me that this is no madman as the Bush Regime have portrayed him.  This is a noble man, a freedom fighter who wants the US and Israel to get the hell out of his home and who can blame him?!?  He spoke from his heart and from his soul, and whenever a man does that, nobody can be against him, for he speaks truth.  The words come from the very depths of his soul. Bush and his puppet masters have been quick with their propaganda brainwashing Americans that bin Ladin and the Moslems are evil, that they hate freedom.  But this kind of charged rhetoric only works with Americans because they are blind and brain dead just like their president.  Americans are the evil ones, and George Bush and Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld are the Devil. Until Americans truly understand why they are being attacked the attacks will continue.  But Americans will never understand because they are idiots and their government knows that and keeps them in the dark.  They know American minds are easy to manipulate. With the coming attacks perhaps the Americans will begin to understand a little bit better.  Maybe it will take 10 or 20 attacks more, but that is okay.  Al Qaeda is not going anywhere, and neither is bin Ladin. Transcript of bin Ladin’s speech Saturday 30 October 2004, 15:54 Makka Time, 12:54 GMT Following is the transcript of Usama bin Ladin’s speech as it appeared in a videotape aired by Aljazeera on Friday. In the interests of authenticity the transcript has been left unedited. To begin: Peace be upon he who follow the Guidance. People of United States, this talk of mine is for you and concerns the ideal way to prevent another Manhattan and deals with the war and its causes and results. Before I begin, I say to you that security is an indispensable pillar in human life and that free men do not forfeit their security contrary to Bush’s claims that we hate freedom. If so, then let him explain why did not strike – for example – Sweden. And we know that freedom haters do not possess defiant spirits like those of the 19 may Allah have mercy on them. No, we fight because we are free men who do not sleep under oppression. We want to restore freedom to our Nation and just as you lay waste to our Nation so shall we lay waste to yours. But I am amazed at you. Even though we are in the fourth year after the events of September 11, Bush is still engaged in distortion, deception and hiding from you the real cause and thus the reasons are still there for a repeat of what occurred. So I shall talk to you about the story behind those events and I shall tell you truthfully about the moments in which the decision was taken for you to consider. I say to you Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the America/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind. The events that affected my soul in a difficult way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American 6th fleet helped them in that. And the whole world saw and heard but did not respond. In those difficult moments many hard to describe ideas bubbled in my soul but in the end they produced intense feelings of rejection of tyranny and gave birth to a strong resolve to punish the oppressors. And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressors in kind and that we destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children. We have not found it difficult to deal with the Bush administration in light of the resemblance it bears to the regimes in our countries, half of which are ruled by the military and the other half of which are ruled by the sons of kings and presidents. Our experience with them is lengthy and both types are replete with those who are characterised by pride, arrogance, greed and misappropriation of wealth. This resemblance began after the visits of Bush Senior to the region at a time when some of our compatriots were dazzled by America and hoping that these visits would have an effect on our countries. All of a sudden he was affected by these monarchies and military regimes and became jealous of their remaining decades in their position to embezzle the public wealth of the Nation without supervision or accounting. So he took dictatorship and suppression of freedoms to his son and they named it the Patriot Act under the pretences of fighting terrorism. In addition, Bush sanctioned the installing of sons as state governors and did not forget to import expertise in election fraud from the regions presidents to Florida to be made use of in moments of difficulty. All that we have mentioned has made it easy for us to provoke and bait this administration. And for the record, we had agreed with the Commander-General Muhammad Ataa, Allah have mercy on him, that all the operations should be carried out within 20 minutes before Bush and his administration notice. It never occurred to us that the Commander in Chief of the armed forces would abandon 50,000 of his citizens in the twin towers to face those great horrors alone at a time when they most needed him. But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more important than occupying himself with the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers we were given three times the period required to execute the operations. All praise is due to Allah. Aljazeera http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79C6AF22-98FB-4A1C-B21F-2BC36E…

Response:

Question:

For PDX-ORD return, I’m flying to Chicago on Thanksgiving day and returning on Monday, which saves $100 on AA versus Sunday (if you can still find a flight). If I could have returned to Portland on Tuesday, it would have been another $50 savings. gld

Response:

Thanks everyone. Based on the responses, leaving early MOnday morning is the better way to go vs Sunday evening. We will be departing from a medium size airport (Milwaukee Wisconsin), so hopefully it will not be too much of a zoo.

Response:

> > … looking for advice about traveling on Thanksgiving > weekend.  …  Sunday after Thanksgiving … > IME Sunday is terrible, and Monday isn’t much better.   > Tuesday is a little better, and Saturday is better still.   > The easiest day to fly on is Thanksgiving itself.

On a related note: What do you think of travel on these days: Rank (where 1 is like Thanksgiving and 5 is like Sun after) —-       Fri 24 Dec (my guess is 5, here)       Thu 23 Dec (my guess is 4, here)       Wed 22 Dec (my guess is 2, here)       Tue 21 Dec (my guess is 2, here)       Mon 20 Dec (my guess is 4, here – it’s a Monday)

Response:

> I’m looking for advice about traveling on Thanksgiving weekend. > Specifically, what is the Sunday after Thanksgiving like for air > travel? Long lines and delays? If it is busy on Sunday, is the rush > over by 4 or 5 p.m. in the evening? > Would it be better to plan business travel for the next morning, > rather than travel on Sunday? > Any advice would be appreciated

Depends on where in the world you are traveling, but in many major American cities, the airports will be packed that Sunday. Typically, the Sunday after TG is one of the most heavy days for air, road, and rail travel. If you can postpone your travel plans for a day or two, you should.

Response:

>I’m looking for advice about traveling on Thanksgiving weekend. >Specifically, what is the Sunday after Thanksgiving like for air >travel? Long lines and delays? If it is busy on Sunday, is the rush >over by 4 or 5 p.m. in the evening? >Would it be better to plan business travel for the next morning, >rather than travel on Sunday?

IME Sunday is terrible, and Monday isn’t much better.  Tuesday is a little better, and Saturday is better still.  The easiest day to fly on is Thanksgiving itself. So when we travel over Thanksgiving, we leave Monday or Tuesday before Thanksgiving, and come back either Saturday or Tuesday after Thanksgiving. grandma Rosalie

Response:

I’m looking for advice about traveling on Thanksgiving weekend. Specifically, what is the Sunday after Thanksgiving like for air travel? Long lines and delays? If it is busy on Sunday, is the rush over by 4 or 5 p.m. in the evening? Would it be better to plan business travel for the next morning, rather than travel on Sunday? Any advice would be appreciated

Response:

> I’m looking for advice about traveling on Thanksgiving weekend. > Specifically, what is the Sunday after Thanksgiving like for air > travel? Long lines and delays? If it is busy on Sunday, is the rush > over by 4 or 5 p.m. in the evening? > Would it be better to plan business travel for the next morning, > rather than travel on Sunday? > Any advice would be appreciated

It will certainly be busier than on Guy Fawkes Day. JohnT

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > No matter how secure your police state becomes, terrorists will always > > find a > > way to get to the americans.  The only way to protect yourself against > > terrorists is to erase the big target you have on yourself. > Impossible.  The United States is the only superpower left in the world. > Therefore, it is the logical target of these maniacs. > You’re completely correct Jeff.  Why some people seem to think that if we’d > just leave the terrorists alone to do whatever they want, they would then > leave us alone is beyond me.  These same people think that the only reason > we have terrorists in the first place is because of US foreign policy. > These same people pretty much think that all the problems of the world are > the fault of the US.  I guess we are supposed to be ashamed to be Americans, > not proud.  In fact if you dare say you are proud to be an American you will > be attacked by these people for being arrogant.

And of course you fail to mention the fact that this "nobody" above is really JF Mezei, a frog canuck whose whole Usenet "career" has pretty much been centered around frothing – at – the – mouth hatred of the US… This man – child lives at home with mommy and doesn’t have a job so I guess he needs *some* kind of outlet for his frustrations, e.g. relentlessly trolling newsgroups with his anti – US tripe… In any case the moniker "nobody" fits him to a "t" — Best Greg

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>JF, stay out of our politics. >Then the USA should stay out of other country’s politics. As soon as the USa >startes to interfere with other countries, then oyher countries have a right >to criticise the USA’s policies. >> and (2) 50% of the country LIKES the President.  (3) in the U.S. we don’t >> have a "regime" but rather an administration. >The day the USA began its illegal invasion of Iraq, it became a "regime". >The day the USA began to torture prisoners (both from afghanistan and Iraq), >it became a regime >The day the USA began to arrest and piut in prison humans residing legally in >the USA and detained then for long period without charghe or due legal >process, it became a regime. >And as long as the USA continues to abuse military power to attack/kill >civilians in Iraq, it is a regime. >Need I go on ? > Nah, just kill yourself and be done with it.

*lol* Poor JF fails to discern the difference between poor governing abilities, e.g. the Bush administration and totalitarianism.  In JF’s eyes,  both North Korea and the US are both on an equal footing as "rogue states", absolutely no diff between ‘em.  Utter nonsense, of course…but this is the kind of feeble "reasoning" JF and his elk are reduced to…they’ve nothing but blind hatred and jealousy for the US. Heck, I consider Chicago poorly governed, Mayor Daley II is no better than Brezhnev, but that doesn’t mean 2004 Chicago can be likened to say, Magnitogorsk in 1966… [BTW, has JF trolled the circumcision groups lately...???] — Best Greg

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> stay out of our politics. > Then the USA should stay out of other country’s politics. As soon as the > USa > startes to interfere with other countries, then oyher countries have a > right > to criticise the USA’s policies. > and (2) 50% of the country LIKES the President.  (3) in the U.S. we don’t > have a "regime" but rather an administration. > The day the USA began its illegal invasion of Iraq, it became a "regime". > The day the USA began to torture prisoners (both from afghanistan and > Iraq), > it became a regime > The day the USA began to arrest and piut in prison humans residing legally > in > the USA and detained then for long period without charghe or due legal > process, it became a regime. > And as long as the USA continues to abuse military power to attack/kill > civilians in Iraq, it is a regime. > Need I go on ?

I suggest a dictionary . . . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The USA has done the very things that it has been criticising other > countries > of doing in the past.

Response:

trolled: >In defiance to the Bush Regime, I have just tuned in to a satellite station >that is broadcasting a Cat Stevens song. >If US media were more awake, they would have been broadcasting Plenty of Cat >Stevens Songs the day he was arrested and put in jail overnight as a show of >support of Cat Stevens and defiance of the Bush Regime’s policies. >At least Cat Stevens (or whatever is name is this week) would have known that >he still has grass roots support from americans and that it is just the >government gone nuts.

As opposed to you going nuts?

Response:

> Aren’t there any other countries doing things that you > don’t approve of? > Sure – but they don’t use cruise missles or helicopter gunships.

One doesn’t need cruise missles or helicopter gunships to kill people.  The only reason you care so much about the actions of the US is because we are the ones on CNN.  There are many other wars going on in the world that are doing much more harm than what’s going on in Iraq.  But they don’t get the news coverage so you don’t know they exist.  Either that or you only care about the wars the US is involved with because of some personal bias. Matt

Response:

>   What will you do in Gitmo?  Let them go?  More of the same? Turn them > over to the courts? UN? Home Countries? >   What will you "change" about the Patriot Act? >   How about CAPPS II or any similar systems? >   No fly lists? >   Arrest and detention of US citizens at home, abroad. >   Visa and Passport requirements as well as entry restrictions and requirements. > The problem with these questions is that the intelligent choice for the above > answers will be portrayed as being "weak" by the Bush regime.

Actually, you are wrong, they will be seen as being "weak" by the voters. There are certain things that are political suicide.  In the past it has been anything having to do with cutting Social Security benefits or raising taxes.  It has nothing to do with common sense and everything to do with politics.  We all know Social Security will soon be bankrupt, but since it’s political suicide to do anything about it, it will not get fixed.  Now you can add anything that can be portrayed as weakening homeland defense to the list.  The Bush administration did not cause this, they have just reacted to it, they have just given the voters what they want. >Where the Kerry > campaign has failed is in underlying the fact that the Bush regime has made > many wrong decisions that may appear to be strong, but are still wrong, while > the right decisions may appear weak, but would yield better results.

Kind of hard for Kerry to do this, because him and Edwards agreed with Bush on most of the so called "mistakes".  Kerry’s chief complaint seems to be that the war didn’t go exactly as planned, as if any war does. > Unfortunatly, no offense meant to americans, but the fact that 50% of > americans are still willing to vote for what is essentially a war criminal and > a liar means that discussions at that level of detail on actions would be way > over the heads of that 50% of americans that need to be convinced that voting > for a war criminal is a very bad thing for their country.

No offense to non-Americans, but you see a distorted view of America. Calling our President a war-criminal just makes us care even less about your opinion. > This is an interesting phenomena that happened after 9-11 (and lets not forget > the anthrax issue which as NOT been brought up ny any politician, probably > because it was a made-in-USA weapon probably done by americans which would > destroy the bosu argument of arab terrorists).

Or maybe because the Anthrax attacks is old news and appears to have been an isolated incident? > The problem is that nobody had the guts to stand up and tell americans that > they will need to be patient to ensure that the RIGHT decisions on security > would be made.

Changes in security has been an ongoing process.  It’s been three years, and it is still evolving, as it will for the next 3 years and beyond.  We didn’t expect everything to happen overnight.  But some simple things, like securing cockpit doors, and stopping people from carrying knives on airplanes could be easily accomplished in a short time, and were. > If you’ve seen Farenheight 9-11

Refer back up to my previous comment about having a distorted view of America. > you’ll know that most politicians didn’t > bother reading te Patriot Act before voting on it. They were just told is was > an anti-terrorist bill and it would be highly unpatriotic to vote against it > (same with the auythorisation to deploy troups in Iraq)

And how is that President Bush’s fault?  I suppose in your country, politicians don’t act like politicians. > And this is where a good president with the right leaderhsip would have been > able to talk to americans and calm them down and give them the right level of > confidence that the government would be doing things RIGHT.

Uhh….that’s exactly what Bush did.  Maybe if you lived in the US instead of learning how things happened by watching Farenheight 9/11 you’d know that. > But history will show that he Bush regime took advantage of the state of shock > and tried to keep the USA in that state for as long as possible in order to > implement their agenda

Once again, US citizens don’t need the Bush administration to tell us that we should be worried about terrorists attacks on the US.  You act like we are just stupid paranoid people and there really aren’t a bunch of crazy people out there in the world trying to attack us.  We just think that way because Bush has tricked us into believing it. (or rather the rumsfeld,cheney,wolfowitz agenda, ….blah…blah…blah…. > However, Kerry missed a great opportunity to fix his biggest flip flop on > Iraq. He should have simply stated that at the time authorisation was voted, > the goal was simply to deploy troups in the vicinity of Iraq to put pressure > on Hussein and that the Bush regime had publicly stated that they would work > through the UN to unsure compliance to UN resolutions. (even tough many knew > his true intentions were to go ahead anyways).

You have a very bad memory.  We spent 10 years working with the UN to get Saddam to comply with the UN resolutions.  The UN gave him ultimatum after ultimatum, most of which he never complied with.  Finally Bush told Saddam he had one more chance to comply with the UN resolutions or be removed. Saddam still did not comply, so Bush did what Kerry and the rest of the US congress AND the UN authorized him to do. Also, the goal was never to simply deploy troops in the vicinity of Iraq, the goal was from the very beginning to remove Saddam.  That is what Kerry authorized Bush to do.  So for him to say now that he misunderstood and never though Bush would actually attack Iraq would be a pretty stupid thing to say.  That is why the ONLY thing Kerry can complain about is what happened after the war started. > He could then easily accuse the bush regime of deception and lying to congress > and to the american pulic since it is clear that he had no intentions of > letting the UN inspectors complete their work and show that Hussein had > complied with UN resolutions and had no WMDs left (which would have removed > any justification for military action).

Kerry would be an idiot to say that.  To say that Kerry would have to presume that Saddam would have fully complied with the inspectors, which everyone knows that Saddam would never do that. Matt

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>JF, stay out of our politics. >Then the USA should stay out of other country’s politics. As soon as the USa >startes to interfere with other countries, then oyher countries have a right >to criticise the USA’s policies. >> and (2) 50% of the country LIKES the President.  (3) in the U.S. we don’t >> have a "regime" but rather an administration. >The day the USA began its illegal invasion of Iraq, it became a "regime". >The day the USA began to torture prisoners (both from afghanistan and Iraq), >it became a regime >The day the USA began to arrest and piut in prison humans residing legally in >the USA and detained then for long period without charghe or due legal >process, it became a regime. >And as long as the USA continues to abuse military power to attack/kill >civilians in Iraq, it is a regime. >Need I go on ? > Nah, just kill yourself and be done with it.

So that’s not United Space Alliance then…

Response:

> > Then the USA should stay out of other country’s politics. > Every country in the world is involved with the politics of > other countries?

Are you asking a question or making an incorrect statement? > Your idiotic posts are just your feeble attempt to get > involved with our politics.

As opposed to the idiotic attempts by your gov’t to get "involved" with the politics of Iraq? > Aren’t there any other countries doing things that you > don’t approve of?

Sure – but they don’t use cruise missles or helicopter gunships. > Unless you’re an Iraqi then why aren’t you bringing up bad > things the US had done to your own country?

Good to hear you admit that the US has done bad things to Iraq. And it doesn’t take an Iraqi to point that out.

Response:

"I have just tuned in to a satellite station that is broadcasting a Cat Stevens song." That would be a US based satellite system, I suppose?  One that the Canadian government will not allow you to subscribe to?  Nonetheless, whatever sins (real or imagined) Americans have committed, subjecting anyone to Cat Stevens music is cruel and unusual punishment.  Why would anyone support that?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > message > > > Can you cite a source where John Kerry has said he will get > > rid of the no > > > fly list? > > Kerry has pointed out that much of this is window dressing, > > completely pointless if you’re not going to stop the 3 > million > > people crossing the US-Mexico border every year, and you > aren’t > > going to check 99% of the containers coming into the USA. > Ok, but like all of Kerry’s other issues, he points out the > obvious problem, > but offers no solution. > Whereas Bush simply refuses to amit that there’s a problem. > You really think that Kerry will get rid of the no-fly list, > or check every > cargo container coming into the US, or build a wall on the US- > Mexico border? > The first step to a solution is admitting that there’s a problem.

What are you talking about?  Do you really think Bush doesn’t realize that protecting our borders and ports is a problem?  Bush has requested a 600 percent increase in port security since 2001 and 70 percent increase in funding for border protection since 2001. http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-20040206-15.html I’ll admit the no fly list has it’s problems, but I haven’t heard Bush or Kerry discuss ending it so I can only assume they both support the no fly list. Matt

Response:

> No matter how secure your police state becomes, terrorists will always > find a > way to get to the americans.  The only way to protect yourself against > terrorists is to erase the big target you have on yourself. > Impossible.  The United States is the only superpower left in the world. > Therefore, it is the logical target of these maniacs.

You’re completely correct Jeff.  Why some people seem to think that if we’d just leave the terrorists alone to do whatever they want, they would then leave us alone is beyond me.  These same people think that the only reason we have terrorists in the first place is because of US foreign policy. These same people pretty much think that all the problems of the world are the fault of the US.  I guess we are supposed to be ashamed to be Americans, not proud.  In fact if you dare say you are proud to be an American you will be attacked by these people for being arrogant. One thing that does bring a smile to my face when I think about these people is the fact that I was able to cast my vote for Bush and every other Republican candidate and Republican issue yesterday (absentee) and all they can do is sit in front of their computer and cry because most of them are not even Americans and all they can do is spew their hatred of America in the newsgroups, which as we all know, will never actually change someone’s mind on who to vote for…….hahahahaha…..ohhh I’m laughing so hard right now Matt

Response:

> > > stay out of our politics. > Then the USA should stay out of other country’s politics. > Every country in the world is involved with the politics of other countries? > Your idiotic posts are just your feeble attempt to get involved with our > politics.  But it’s ok for you? > Aren’t there any other countries doing things that you don’t approve of? > Why are you so obsessed with the US?

See my post above, Matt… > What country are you from anyway?  Unless you’re an Iraqi then why aren’t > you bringing up bad things the US had done to your own country?

Poor JF Mezei aka "nobody" is a francophone Canadien – prolly just about the most "unloved" group of people around, *lol*… — Best Greg

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->JF, stay out of our politics. >Then the USA should stay out of other country’s politics. As soon as the USa >startes to interfere with other countries, then oyher countries have a right >to criticise the USA’s policies. > and (2) 50% of the country LIKES the President.  (3) in the U.S. we don’t > have a "regime" but rather an administration. >The day the USA began its illegal invasion of Iraq, it became a "regime". >The day the USA began to torture prisoners (both from afghanistan and Iraq), >it became a regime >The day the USA began to arrest and piut in prison humans residing legally in >the USA and detained then for long period without charghe or due legal >process, it became a regime. >And as long as the USA continues to abuse military power to attack/kill >civilians in Iraq, it is a regime. >Need I go on ?

Nah, just kill yourself and be done with it.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You really think that Kerry will get rid of the no-fly list, or check every > cargo container coming into the US, or build a wall on the US-Mexico border? > Not going to happen under Kerry, or anyone else. > OK, lets pretend that Kerry doesn’t undo any of the silly stuff done by Bush, > and doesn’t implement cargo inspections from ships. > Status quo is still better than allowing the Bush Regime to keep on adding > more measures that will make travel even more difficult, and will make > import/exports more difficult and more costly and further hurt the US > international trade and travel industries.

Make up your mind…….first you critize Bush because he is not checking every cargo container coming into the US or watching the US-Mexico border well enough and say that Kerry would do a better job of that.  Then when I point out that is a silly arguement, you criticize Bush because he might actually try to do those things. If Bush found a cure for AIDS you’d criticize him for causing an overpopulation problem in Africa. This is exactly the kind of thinking that has made me not care what people in other countries think about the actions of America.  For whatever reason you have a bug up your butt about us, and nothing we do will ever change that. > What the bush regime is doing is transforming the USA into an island. > If the bush regime is re-selected by americans, I would not be surprised to > see Oil priced in euros before the end of the 4 years. Continued volatility of > the USA dollar will force the world to seek a more stable currency with which > to make trades. > Americans who continue to support the Bush regime have absolutely no clue of > the damage Bush is inflicting on the USA. They don’t care able international > issues since they wrongly think that the USA doesn’t need any exports to

survive. blah blah blah….what does that have to do with the presidential election? > Can Boeing survive just be selling 737s to Southwest ? If it can’t export its > planes, then it will only have one active customer still buying planes in

the USA. That’s ok, because Boeing can still get defense contracts creating weapons that will allow us to go around the world and indiscriminately kill women and children.  That’s all we really want to do. Matt

Response:

J F  M e z e i aka "nobody", "John Doe", etc., etc., etc. trolled: >In defiance to the Bush Regime, I have just tuned in to a satellite station >that is broadcasting a Cat Stevens song. >If US media were more awake, they would have been broadcasting Plenty of Cat >Stevens Songs the day he was arrested and put in jail overnight as a show of >support of Cat Stevens and defiance of the Bush Regime’s policies. >At least Cat Stevens (or whatever is name is this week) would have known that >he still has grass roots support from americans and that it is just the >government gone nuts.

As opposed to you going nuts?

Response:

> stay out of our politics.

Then the USA should stay out of other country’s politics. As soon as the USa startes to interfere with other countries, then oyher countries have a right to criticise the USA’s policies. > and (2) 50% of the country LIKES the President.  (3) in the U.S. we don’t > have a "regime" but rather an administration.

The day the USA began its illegal invasion of Iraq, it became a "regime". The day the USA began to torture prisoners (both from afghanistan and Iraq), it became a regime The day the USA began to arrest and piut in prison humans residing legally in the USA and detained then for long period without charghe or due legal process, it became a regime. And as long as the USA continues to abuse military power to attack/kill civilians in Iraq, it is a regime. Need I go on ? The USA has done the very things that it has been criticising other countries of doing in the past.

Response:

>    A few tough questions no one has asked Kerry are: >   What will you do in Gitmo?  Let them go?  More of the same? Turn them > over to the courts? UN? Home Countries? >   What will you "change" about the Patriot Act? >   How about CAPPS II or any similar systems? >   No fly lists? >   Arrest and detention of US citizens at home, abroad. >   Visa and Passport requirements as well as entry restrictions and

requirements. I wouldn’t expect Kerry to change any of the above, if elected.  You can pretty much expect more similar tactics to be implemented over the next 10 or 20 years because politicians have to be able to say they are tough on terrorism.  Only way to do that is to enact new security programs. > But the Bush regime instituted many policies > not to actually add security, but rather to be seen as prortecting americans > by adding very visible measures. This was needed because the Bush regime is a > one trick poney: scare the population into wanting a tough military government > to protect them.

Americans have always wanted a tough military, NOT a "military government". Why shouldn’t we be scared?  There are thousands of crazy arabs out there plotting to kill us.  Or is that just something Bush has made up?  Are the homeland security tactics implemented by Bush perfect?  No of course not, there is no perfect way to balance strong homeland security in an open society. > Remove the political need to **appear** tough, and real experts may be able > setup the real airport security.

You can’t take the politics out of political decisions.  What would the "real experts" do differently?  Sure some of the security measures only "cosmetic", but they are still needed.  A lot of the new security measures will make a big difference. >   What you’re really saying is that if you take away the political need not > to "change your mind" or approach in any way for fear of looking uncertian, > we can learn from the past.  That is true of every administration and it > is the most dangerous part about the "flip flop/waffle" charge we hear > in alot of campaigns.  It causes positions to harden, instead of being > flexible to change.

Changing positions because of a specific event or new evidence is one thing. Changing positions on a whim because of a poll, or changing positions so often that no one can figure out what your position even is, or changing positions that are based on moral issues, are completely different. I’m voting for a person based upon what they tell me about themselves before the election.  I don’t want that person changing their mind about their positions unless they have a very good reason.  If you’re pro-choice you wouldn’t want to elect a candidate that is pro-choice and then have them change their mind to being pro-life would you? Matt

Response:

> > I haven’t heard anything that would indicate John Kerry would weaken airport > security or dump the no-fly list.  On the contrary, he speaks of increasing > homeland security.  Obviously you think he’s a flip-flopper and will weaken > homeland security anyway…..I agree. > Not sure what Kerry would do.

   Which has been a real failure of the election system in this country. No one has really asked these tough questions.  It’s for a variety of reasons of course, but amongst them is that the Bush supporters don’t really want them brought up either.      A few tough questions no one has asked Kerry are:   What will you do in Gitmo?  Let them go?  More of the same? Turn them over to the courts? UN? Home Countries?   What will you "change" about the Patriot Act?   How about CAPPS II or any similar systems?   No fly lists?   Arrest and detention of US citizens at home, abroad.   Visa and Passport requirements as well as entry restrictions and requirements. > But the Bush regime instituted many policies > not to actually add security, but rather to be seen as prortecting americans > by adding very visible measures. This was needed because the Bush regime is a > one trick poney: scare the population into wanting a tough military government > to protect them.

   It didn’t happen in a vacuum.  The US Congress pushed much of this stuff hard to satisfy their constituents.  The airlines were screaming to have the headache taken away from them. > Remove the political need to **appear** tough, and real experts may be able > setup the real airport security.

[snip]   What you’re really saying is that if you take away the political need not to "change your mind" or approach in any way for fear of looking uncertian, we can learn from the past.  That is true of every administration and it is the most dangerous part about the "flip flop/waffle" charge we hear in alot of campaigns.  It causes positions to harden, instead of being flexible to change.

Response:

> Not sure what Kerry would do.

Exactly. Matt

Response:

>I haven’t heard anything that would indicate John Kerry would weaken airport >security or dump the no-fly list.  On the contrary, he speaks of increasing >homeland security > Yup.  And putting some sanity behind it, so that people don’t get grounded with > no recourse just because some OTHER John Smith might be under suspicion > — Kimbis

Can you cite a source where John Kerry has said he will get rid of the no fly list? Matt

Response:

> I haven’t heard anything that would indicate John Kerry would weaken airport > security or dump the no-fly list.  On the contrary, he speaks of increasing > homeland security.  Obviously you think he’s a flip-flopper and will weaken > homeland security anyway…..I agree.

Not sure what Kerry would do. But the Bush regime instituted many policies not to actually add security, but rather to be seen as prortecting americans by adding very visible measures. This was needed because the Bush regime is a one trick poney: scar the population into wanting a tough military government to protect them. Remove the political need to **appear** tough, and real experts may be able setup the real airport security. It isn’t enough to have money, power and military. One needs to know how to use those. The Bush reguime has abused its powers and not used them smartly.

Response:

>I haven’t heard anything that would indicate John Kerry would weaken airport >security or dump the no-fly list.  On the contrary, he speaks of increasing >homeland security

Yup.  And putting some sanity behind it, so that people don’t get grounded with no recourse just because some OTHER John Smith might be under suspicion — Kimbis

Response:

Air travellers across the USA have had to put up with increasing humiliation and inconvenience.  Thankfully, this is likely to come to an end: the insanity of the USA’s current head of state is becoming increasingly apparent, and ‘regime change’ is in the air.  For further details, read: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/markosmoulitsas/story/0,151…

Response:

> Air travellers across the USA have had to put up with increasing > humiliation and inconvenience.  Thankfully, this is likely to come to > an end: the insanity of the USA’s current head of state is becoming > increasingly apparent, and ‘regime change’ is in the air.  For further > details, read:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/markosmoulitsas/story/0,151… I haven’t heard anything that would indicate John Kerry would weaken airport security or dump the no-fly list.  On the contrary, he speaks of increasing homeland security.  Obviously you think he’s a flip-flopper and will weaken homeland security anyway…..I agree. Matt

Response:

Question:

> > Gawd, she is just like her dad.  Alcoholic, drug addict, party animal, > sex maniac, a total flunk out.  She’s got SLUT written all over her > face.

Where else izzzit writed? — Six Scents http://tinyurl.com/4hfm2

Response:

> Gawd, she is just like her dad.  Alcoholic, drug addict, party animal, > sex maniac, a total flunk out.  She’s got SLUT written all over her > face.

And you know all of this how?  Did you party with her or screw her? You seem like you know all about her. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Looking at her is like looking at Dubya in drag.  Come to think of it, > I bet when he wants to party he just puts a wig on and grabs a dress > from Jenna’s closet and heads for the bars.  I bet no one can tell the > difference.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Gawd, she is just like her dad.  Alcoholic, drug addict, party animal, > sex maniac, a total flunk out.  She’s got SLUT written all over her > face. > Looking at her is like looking at Dubya in drag.  Come to think of it, > I bet when he wants to party he just puts a wig on and grabs a dress > from Jenna’s closet and heads for the bars.  I bet no one can tell the > difference. >What does that make John Kerry’s daughter. >http://www.chickenmcnugget.com/pics/Kerry_Daughter.jpg

Like mother like daughter

Response:

> Maybe her daddy got her a job as a stewardess on AF1.  She probably > serves a nice cocktail of STD’s…

- I hope not. I banged her…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Gawd, she is just like her dad.  Alcoholic, drug addict, party animal, >> sex maniac, a total flunk out.  She’s got SLUT written all over her >> face. >> Looking at her is like looking at Dubya in drag.  Come to think of it, >> I bet when he wants to party he just puts a wig on and grabs a dress >> from Jenna’s closet and heads for the bars.  I bet no one can tell the >> difference. >She sounds like a perfect guest then for Howards show. >Cause this is the typical person he has on. >HOW entertaining! > Yeah, for the cretins like you who watch trash like this it is.

huummm.  you OBVIOUSLY didn’t get the tone of my post. dumbass!!

Response:

>>Like I said, the rantings of the nutbar wacko left.  You can be sure >this clown would be hollaring like a stuck pig if Bush DIDN’T go to >Florida under these circumstances, saying he was insensitive to >people’s problems.  They are just ranting nutbars, so ignore them. >Does he HAVE to fly in at 4 and 5pm every single time???

No, he should adjust his schedule to some nutbar like you. >I know he’s not very smart, but surely those highly intelligent >handlers he’s got who managed to steal the election in 2000 can figure >out that if you inconvenience the taxpayers who are paying for his >multi-million dollar 747 and all his limos and you don’t let them get >home on time to feed their children because Mr. Blue Blood decides >he’s GOT to fly in in the middle of rush hour they’re not going to be >very happy to see him later that night on prime time TV.

Speaking of not very smart, read your own crap.  And your tired old stole the election crap is just that stupid tired old crap.  They should change the Constitution just to please some nut like you.  And I’m sure you did the same rant when Clinton held up the traffic at LAX while he was getting a haircut on Air Force One didn’t you stupid? >Besides, doesn’t your New England Blue Blood candidate like to fool >people into believing he’s a regular guy just like them?  Why not have >him drive in on a little Toyota Echo in the middle of rush hour >traffic so he can get a taste of what it’s REALLY like for once in his >lifetime?

A. he’s not my candidate B. he’s from Texas not New England, but that is beyond your ability to comprehend C. your nutbar rantings don’t deserve any more comments.  They’re so monumentally stupid and ignorant they speak for themselves.

Response:

>   JUST LIKE HOWARD’S KIDS.

Huh?  Who’s Howard, Emu? Is that the little boy you raped?

Response:

> Does he HAVE to fly in at 4 and 5pm every single time??? > I know he’s not very smart, but surely those highly intelligent handlers > he’s got who managed to steal the election in 2000 can figure out that if > you inconvenience the taxpayers who are paying for his multi-million > dollar 747 and all his limos and you don’t let them get home on time to > feed their children because Mr. Blue Blood decides he’s GOT to fly in in > the middle of rush hour they’re not going to be very happy to see him > later that night on prime time TV.

You’re all getting your turn after we had to endure Clinton’s fascination with coming to Manhattan, of all places, more frequently than any other president ever has.  I know Floridians don’t deserve traffic, but you have no idea what even a small glitch can do to traffic around here – let alone complete closings of serveral major highways. Yikes.

Response:

> Gawd, she is just like her dad.  Alcoholic, drug addict, party animal, > sex maniac, a total flunk out.  She’s got SLUT written all over her > face. > Looking at her is like looking at Dubya in drag.  Come to think of it, > I bet when he wants to party he just puts a wig on and grabs a dress > from Jenna’s closet and heads for the bars.  I bet no one can tell the > difference.

What does that make John Kerry’s daughter. http://www.chickenmcnugget.com/pics/Kerry_Daughter.jpg

Response:

>Maybe her daddy got her a job as a stewardess on AF1.  She probably >serves a nice cocktail of STD’s…

And you would be the most deserving to receive them.

Response:

  JUST LIKE HOWARD’S KIDS.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Gawd, she is just like her dad.  Alcoholic, drug addict, party animal, > sex maniac, a total flunk out.  She’s got SLUT written all over her > face. > Looking at her is like looking at Dubya in drag.  Come to think of it, > I bet when he wants to party he just puts a wig on and grabs a dress > from Jenna’s closet and heads for the bars.  I bet no one can tell the > difference.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Judging by the number of times the motherfucker has flown into Miami >>during the middle of evening rush hour (yesterday, 5pm) tying up >>traffic all over the city endlessly while he and his millionaire >>buddies take their sweet time deplaning, getting into the limos, and >>cruising the streets of Miami in their motorcade on their way to see >>their rich friends in Coral Gables while the whole city is brought to >>a halt under the hot sun waiting for him to finish parading his sorry >>ass around, I’d say it’s very related to air travel.  But it’s >>definitely not recreational.  Ask any of the thousands who were stuck >>in horrendous traffic last night during rush hour stopped at a stand >>still waiting for his motorcade to go by so they could get home and >>feed their children if they felt recreated. >Like I said, the rantings of the nutbar wacko left.  You can be sure >this clown would be hollaring like a stuck pig if Bush DIDN’T go to >Florida under these circumstances, saying he was insensitive to >people’s problems.  They are just ranting nutbars, so ignore them. > Does he HAVE to fly in at 4 and 5pm every single time??? > I know he’s not very smart, but surely those highly intelligent > handlers he’s got who managed to steal the election in 2000 can figure > out that if you inconvenience the taxpayers who are paying for his > multi-million dollar 747 and all his limos and you don’t let them get > home on time to feed their children because Mr. Blue Blood decides > he’s GOT to fly in in the middle of rush hour they’re not going to be > very happy to see him later that night on prime time TV. > Besides, doesn’t your New England Blue Blood candidate like to fool > people into believing he’s a regular guy just like them?  Why not have > him drive in on a little Toyota Echo in the middle of rush hour > traffic so he can get a taste of what it’s REALLY like for once in his > lifetime?

I put up with King Reagan for 8 years in Santa Barbara. Un-fucking-believable!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>Gawd, she is just like her dad.  Alcoholic, drug addict, party animal, >>>sex maniac, a total flunk out.  She’s got SLUT written all over her >>>face. >>>Looking at her is like looking at Dubya in drag.  Come to think of it, >>>I bet when he wants to party he just puts a wig on and grabs a dress >>>from Jenna’s closet and heads for the bars.  I bet no one can tell the >>>difference. >> And what exactly does this have to do with recreational air travel? >Jenna is in the mile high club

Maybe her daddy got her a job as a stewardess on AF1.  She probably serves a nice cocktail of STD’s…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Gawd, she is just like her dad.  Alcoholic, drug addict, party animal, >>sex maniac, a total flunk out.  She’s got SLUT written all over her >>face. >>Looking at her is like looking at Dubya in drag.  Come to think of it, >>I bet when he wants to party he just puts a wig on and grabs a dress >>from Jenna’s closet and heads for the bars.  I bet no one can tell the >>difference. > And what exactly does this have to do with recreational air travel?

Jenna is in the mile high club – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->dennis > Nothing at all, of course.  It is just the wacko nutbar loser left > that spews its senseless venom for lack of having any viable candidate > or alternative.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Judging by the number of times the motherfucker has flown into Miami >during the middle of evening rush hour (yesterday, 5pm) tying up >traffic all over the city endlessly while he and his millionaire >buddies take their sweet time deplaning, getting into the limos, and >cruising the streets of Miami in their motorcade on their way to see >their rich friends in Coral Gables while the whole city is brought to >a halt under the hot sun waiting for him to finish parading his sorry >ass around, I’d say it’s very related to air travel.  But it’s >definitely not recreational.  Ask any of the thousands who were stuck >in horrendous traffic last night during rush hour stopped at a stand >still waiting for his motorcade to go by so they could get home and >feed their children if they felt recreated. >Like I said, the rantings of the nutbar wacko left.  You can be sure >this clown would be hollaring like a stuck pig if Bush DIDN’T go to >Florida under these circumstances, saying he was insensitive to >people’s problems.  They are just ranting nutbars, so ignore them.

Does he HAVE to fly in at 4 and 5pm every single time??? I know he’s not very smart, but surely those highly intelligent handlers he’s got who managed to steal the election in 2000 can figure out that if you inconvenience the taxpayers who are paying for his multi-million dollar 747 and all his limos and you don’t let them get home on time to feed their children because Mr. Blue Blood decides he’s GOT to fly in in the middle of rush hour they’re not going to be very happy to see him later that night on prime time TV. Besides, doesn’t your New England Blue Blood candidate like to fool people into believing he’s a regular guy just like them?  Why not have him drive in on a little Toyota Echo in the middle of rush hour traffic so he can get a taste of what it’s REALLY like for once in his lifetime?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Gawd, she is just like her dad.  Alcoholic, drug addict, party animal, > sex maniac, a total flunk out.  She’s got SLUT written all over her > face. > Looking at her is like looking at Dubya in drag.  Come to think of it, > I bet when he wants to party he just puts a wig on and grabs a dress > from Jenna’s closet and heads for the bars.  I bet no one can tell the > difference. >She sounds like a perfect guest then for Howards show. >Cause this is the typical person he has on. >HOW entertaining!

Yeah, for the cretins like you who watch trash like this it is.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Gawd, she is just like her dad.  Alcoholic, drug addict, party animal, > sex maniac, a total flunk out.  She’s got SLUT written all over her > face. > Looking at her is like looking at Dubya in drag.  Come to think of it, > I bet when he wants to party he just puts a wig on and grabs a dress > from Jenna’s closet and heads for the bars.  I bet no one can tell the > difference. >  And what exactly does this have to do with recreational air travel? >dennis

Nothing at all, of course.  It is just the wacko nutbar loser left that spews its senseless venom for lack of having any viable candidate or alternative.

Response:

>Judging by the number of times the motherfucker has flown into Miami >during the middle of evening rush hour (yesterday, 5pm) tying up >traffic all over the city endlessly while he and his millionaire >buddies take their sweet time deplaning, getting into the limos, and >cruising the streets of Miami in their motorcade on their way to see >their rich friends in Coral Gables while the whole city is brought to >a halt under the hot sun waiting for him to finish parading his sorry >ass around, I’d say it’s very related to air travel.  But it’s >definitely not recreational.  Ask any of the thousands who were stuck >in horrendous traffic last night during rush hour stopped at a stand >still waiting for his motorcade to go by so they could get home and >feed their children if they felt recreated.

Like I said, the rantings of the nutbar wacko left.  You can be sure this clown would be hollaring like a stuck pig if Bush DIDN’T go to Florida under these circumstances, saying he was insensitive to people’s problems.  They are just ranting nutbars, so ignore them.

Response:

   Just like what Howard wants all girls to be.

Response:

>    Just like what Howard wants all girls to be.

IS that how you mother got that way?

Response:

> Gawd, she is just like her dad.  Alcoholic, drug addict, party animal, > sex maniac, a total flunk out.  She’s got SLUT written all over her > face. > Looking at her is like looking at Dubya in drag.  Come to think of it, > I bet when he wants to party he just puts a wig on and grabs a dress > from Jenna’s closet and heads for the bars.  I bet no one can tell the > difference.

  And what exactly does this have to do with recreational air travel? dennis

Response:

>> Gawd, she is just like her dad.  Alcoholic, drug addict, party animal, > sex maniac, a total flunk out.  She’s got SLUT written all over her > face. > Looking at her is like looking at Dubya in drag.  Come to think of it, > I bet when he wants to party he just puts a wig on and grabs a dress > from Jenna’s closet and heads for the bars.  I bet no one can tell the > difference. >  And what exactly does this have to do with recreational air travel? >dennis

Judging by the number of times the motherfucker has flown into Miami during the middle of evening rush hour (yesterday, 5pm) tying up traffic all over the city endlessly while he and his millionaire buddies take their sweet time deplaning, getting into the limos, and cruising the streets of Miami in their motorcade on their way to see their rich friends in Coral Gables while the whole city is brought to a halt under the hot sun waiting for him to finish parading his sorry ass around, I’d say it’s very related to air travel.  But it’s definitely not recreational.  Ask any of the thousands who were stuck in horrendous traffic last night during rush hour stopped at a stand still waiting for his motorcade to go by so they could get home and feed their children if they felt recreated.

Response:

>Gawd, she is just like her dad.  Alcoholic, drug addict, party animal, >sex maniac, a total flunk out.  She’s got SLUT written all over her >face. >Looking at her is like looking at Dubya in drag.  Come to think of it, >I bet when he wants to party he just puts a wig on and grabs a dress >from Jenna’s closet and heads for the bars.  I bet no one can tell the >difference.

And I’ll bet when you want to have delusions of grandeur and pretend you’re human, you pull your head out of your ass and scurry along the floor like the insect you are don’t you?

Response:

> Gawd, she is just like her dad.  Alcoholic, drug addict, party animal, > sex maniac, a total flunk out.  She’s got SLUT written all over her > face. > Looking at her is like looking at Dubya in drag.  Come to think of it, > I bet when he wants to party he just puts a wig on and grabs a dress > from Jenna’s closet and heads for the bars.  I bet no one can tell the > difference.

She sounds like a perfect guest then for Howards show. Cause this is the typical person he has on. HOW entertaining!

Response:

Gawd, she is just like her dad.  Alcoholic, drug addict, party animal, sex maniac, a total flunk out.  She’s got SLUT written all over her face. Looking at her is like looking at Dubya in drag.  Come to think of it, I bet when he wants to party he just puts a wig on and grabs a dress from Jenna’s closet and heads for the bars.  I bet no one can tell the difference.

Response:

Question:

> > This implies that the FBI linguists were not connected until quite > recently. Very strange. > My guess is that if you got some FBI networking admin in an interview, > they’d have some pretty good reasons why it’s much more complicated > than it would seem.

Either that, or it’s a large government body which has to jump through a lot of bureaucratic hoops and play a lot of politics before anything gets done. Which certainly happens here in the UK. For example: http://www.vnunet.com/analysis/1102726 — Simon Elliott    http://www.ctsn.co.uk

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Did you ever hear the Bush Regime’s mantra of "total information > awareness". ? > The amount of data generated by by all their listening/spying > equipment around the world must be staggering. In the past, they > probably only tasked specific pieces of equipment to record stuff > when it was needed. (eg: you suspect a bad guy to stay at a specific > hotel, you you activate your link to the hotel’s telephone switch and > record all conversations during 3 days and then use yor equipmeht to > pick out only those voices that match your suspect and then translate. > However, with "total information awareness", they want to constant > record everything and constantly parse everything in order to not > only find suspectts in places they didn’t know they were going, but > also spot terrorists before they are known to the FBI. > Whether that is achievable or not, and whether this is desirable or > not is a totally different question. However, it is ironic that the > one country whose citizens were so much against big brother and even > scared of a national identity card is the one country where citizens > are embracing its regime’s plans to spy on everyone all the time.

This predates Mr. Bush by a long time. One of the best summaries I’ve seen is here: http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/te/6929/1.html Note the reference to airbus subsidies! — Simon Elliott    http://www.ctsn.co.uk

Response:

> JF – > Please confine your political rantings to other places than > rec.travel.air, and I would also request you limit them to things you MAY > know about – maybe your own country??

If you want to complain about politcal rantings, complain to the original poster.  This subbject is OT for recreational air travel. dennis

Response:

> > JF – > Please confine your political rantings to other places than > rec.travel.air, and I would also request you limit them to things you MAY > know about – maybe your own country?? > If you want to complain about politcal rantings, complain to the original > poster.  This subbject is OT for recreational air travel. > dennis

Your right of course.  I had forgotten about Meghan Powers posts.  I for one will try to keep from responding to these in the future.  Looks like some asshole from Canada. Got a few minutes to kill, here is some interesting reading on Meghan Powers. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Meghan+Powers Looks like there was an effort to get rid of this person about a year ago. Looks like it worked since there wasn’t any posts from Meghan Powers for almost 9 months.  Maybe it’s time to try again.  Looks like we can still headers. Matt

Response:

> <quote> > Another problem for the FBI is limited computer storage capacity.

Did you ever hear the Bush Regime’s mantra of "total information awareness". ? The amount of data generated by by all their listening/spying equipment around the world must be staggering. In the past, they probably only tasked specific pieces of equipment to record stuff when it was needed. (eg: you suspect a bad guy to stay at a specific hotel, you you activate your link to the hotel’s telephone switch and record all conversations during 3 days and then use yor equipmeht to pick out only those voices that match your suspect and then translate. However, with "total information awareness", they want to constant record everything and constantly parse everything in order to not only find suspectts in places they didn’t know they were going, but also spot terrorists before they are known to the FBI. Whether that is achievable or not, and whether this is desirable or not is a totally different question. However, it is ironic that the one country whose citizens were so much against big brother and even scared of a national identity card is the one country where citizens are embracing its regime’s plans to spy on everyone all the time.

Response:

> One difficulty is that the FBI > has trouble finding qualified linguists who can pass required security > clearances for sensitive terrorism and intelligence investigations, he > said.

I don’t suppose there’s an easy solution to this. But what did surprise me was this: > and limitations in its > technology, especially computer storage capacity, also cause problems > that lead to backlogs.

.. which was reiterated in the BBC’s coverage: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3696344.stm <quote> Another problem for the FBI is limited computer storage capacity. In some cases, potentially crucial surveillance material is being automatically deleted before it can be reviewed, the audit found. </quote> Storage solutions are cheap these days. I wonder why the FBI hasn’t just sent someone out to buy a few more terabytes. > But Mueller also said FBI linguists are now connected worldwide so > that someone in one office can work on information collected by > another office far away.

This implies that the FBI linguists were not connected until quite recently. Very strange. — Simon Elliott    http://www.ctsn.co.uk

Response:

JF – Please confine your political rantings to other places than rec.travel.air, and I would also request you limit them to things you MAY know about – maybe your own country??

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There is no such Kerry "problem".  This is fiction – an attack made by > Bush and his supporters > Kerry did support the illegal invasion of Iraq. The democrats were too > stupid > to stand up to this horrendous mistake and allowed the bush regime to > commit > their war crimes. They refused to impeach the war criminals. > The only democrat with the  moral ability to critizise the bush regime’s > war > crimes is howard dean becayuse he was the only one oppsing the illegal > invasion of iraq all along. > Kerry lacks the self confidence and backbone to attack Bush. > However, at this point in time, one must make do with what the democrats > have > offered as an option, and for all his lack of backbone and other flaws, > Kerry > is still better than Bush and his war criminal axis of evil (cheney, > rumsfeld, > wolfowitz) and their orchestra condustor Karl Rove.

Response:

> Storage solutions are cheap these days. I wonder why the FBI hasn’t > just sent someone out to buy a few more terabytes. > But Mueller also said FBI linguists are now connected worldwide so > that someone in one office can work on information collected by > another office far away. > This implies that the FBI linguists were not connected until quite > recently. Very strange.

My guess is that if you got some FBI networking admin in an interview, they’d have some pretty good reasons why it’s much more complicated than it would seem. Matt

Response:

> John Kerry’s problem is that voters see these kinds of stories and can’t > help but wonder how much worse the situation would be if Kerry was > President.

No, Kerry is affraid to attack the bush regime because the mistakes are so bad, and americans have refused to believe those attacks for so long that he would be labeled unpatriotic. The democrats should have chosen Howard Dean. His "overenthousiastic speach" may have been his downfall, but he wouldn’t hve hesitated in attacking/destroying the bush regime and he may have succeeded in waking up americans. There is , however a difference between the necessary removal of war criminals from office and choosing a good president.

Response:

> There is no such Kerry "problem".  This is fiction – an attack made by > Bush and his supporters

Kerry did support the illegal invasion of Iraq. The democrats were too stupid to stand up to this horrendous mistake and allowed the bush regime to commit their war crimes. They refused to impeach the war criminals. The only democrat with the  moral ability to critizise the bush regime’s war crimes is howard dean becayuse he was the only one oppsing the illegal invasion of iraq all along. Kerry lacks the self confidence and backbone to attack Bush. However, at this point in time, one must make do with what the democrats have offered as an option, and for all his lack of backbone and other flaws, Kerry is still better than Bush and his war criminal axis of evil (cheney, rumsfeld, wolfowitz) and their orchestra condustor Karl Rove.

Response:

> John Kerry’s problem > There is no such Kerry "problem".  This is fiction – an attack made by > Bush and his supporters

I would say trailing in the polls by 5-10 points is a pretty big problem. Matt

Response:

> John Kerry’s problem is that voters see these kinds of stories and can’t > help but wonder how much worse the situation would be if Kerry was > President. > No, Kerry is affraid to attack the bush regime

Uh….what planet do you live on?  Every time Kerry opens his mouth he’s attacking Bush. > because the mistakes are so > bad, and americans have refused to believe those attacks for so long

Or, maybe it’s just that a good percentage of Americans can see through the attacks.  One difference between Democrats and Republicans is that Dems think Republicans are stupid to see the truth.  The thought that someone could disagree with your beliefs for valid reasons is enough to make your head want to explode.  Republicans just disagree with the liberal philosophy. > that he > would be labeled unpatriotic. The democrats should have chosen Howard

Dean. That’s like saying the Republicans should have put Pat Buchanan on the ticket.  Howard Dean would have had no chance at winning. Matt

Response:

> Here is an example of the failed leadership of George Bush. > Here is an example of his in-ability to keep America safe and secure. > It’s time for America to abandon the low expectations and lack of > direction and wisdom of the Bush White House. > Bush has no plan for a safe and secure America other than to keep > Americans in a constant state of fear and uncertainty.  There is no > solution in sight from this white house – just a constant battle, a > "war" against unknown, secret enemies.

John Kerry’s problem is that voters see these kinds of stories and can’t help but wonder how much worse the situation would be if Kerry was President. Matt

Response:

> John Kerry’s problem

There is no such Kerry "problem".  This is fiction – an attack made by Bush and his supporters > voters see these kinds of stories and can’t help but wonder > how much worse the situation would be if Kerry was President.

No.  That’s what Bush and his supporters want others to think. Don’t look at the situation the way it is (which is bad on so many fronts).  Shift the focus to Kerry as President.  Put Kerry on trial for the string of disasters and bad news and bad outcomes that is the Bush presidency. Make Kerry answer to or answer for Bush’s poor decisions, Bush’s bad choices, Bush’s ill-conceived campaigns.  How cowardly – yet how fitting for Bush the Vietnam war draft dodger. Deflect the analysis of how the situation got this bad, and the fact that Bush *IS* in charge, and has been for the past 4 years. It’s really quite funny to see Bush, the white house, and all the right-wing spin-masters put Kerry’s presidential leadership record on trial – when it hasn’t even happened yet! They do it because Bush’s own record is shameful and indefensible.

Response:

Here is an example of the failed leadership of George Bush. Here is an example of his in-ability to keep America safe and secure. It’s time for America to abandon the low expectations and lack of direction and wisdom of the Bush White House. Bush has no plan for a safe and secure America other than to keep Americans in a constant state of fear and uncertainty.  There is no solution in sight from this white house – just a constant battle, a "war" against unknown, secret enemies. http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=542&u=/ap/20040927/ap_on_go… Audit Finds Large FBI Translation Backlog Mon Sep 27, 6:06 PM ET By CURT ANDERSON, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON – The FBI (news – web sites) has a backlog of hundreds of thousands of hours of untranslated audio recordings from terror and espionage investigations, despite large increases in money and personnel for translations since the 2001 terror attacks, a Justice Department (news – web sites) audit released Monday said. In addition, the audit by Glenn A. Fine, the agency’s inspector general, found more than one-third of al-Qaida intercepts authorized by a secret federal court were not reviewed within 12 hours of collection as required by FBI Director Robert Mueller. "Our audit highlighted the significant challenges facing the FBI to ensure that translation of key information is performed timely and accurately," Fine said. The audit was completed in July in classified form. The version released Monday was edited to remove sections classified as "secret" by the FBI. Since Sept. 11, 2001, more than 123,000 hours of audio in languages associated with terrorists still had not been reviewed as of April 2004, the audit found. In addition, more than 370,000 hours of audio associated with counterintelligence had not been reviewed. This backlog existed even though money for the FBI’s language services had increased from $21.5 million in fiscal 2001 to about $70 million in fiscal 2004. The number of linguists had risen from 883 to 1,214 over that period. The FBI also is not meeting Mueller’s requirement that all al-Qaida communications collected under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act be reviewed within 12 hours of interception. During April 2004, the audit found, 36 percent of such communications were not even received at FBI headquarters within 12 hours. The audit found that the FBI still lacks language personnel necessary to do all the needed translation work, and limitations in its technology, especially computer storage capacity, also cause problems that lead to backlogs. Critics said the audit shows the FBI’s translation capability is far from adequate. "Three years after the worst terrorist attack on American soil, the overall effectiveness of a major investigative tool in our antiterrorism arsenal is still in doubt," said Sen. Patrick Leahy (news, bio, voting record) of Vermont, senior Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee (news – web sites). "The Justice Department’s translation mess has become a chronic problem that has obvious implications for our national security." The audit made 18 recommendations for the FBI, many of which already have been implemented, Fine said. FBI officials told auditors they are hiring linguists as quickly as they can be found in such languages as Arabic, Farsi, Pashto, Urdu, Chinese, Turkish and Kurdish. "The FBI appears to be taking steps to address these issues, which are critical components of the FBI’s counterterrorism and counterintelligence efforts," Fine said. Mueller said the FBI’s translation workload has doubled since the Sept. 11 attacks, and the bureau is committed to hiring more linguists and fixing the technological problems. One difficulty is that the FBI has trouble finding qualified linguists who can pass required security clearances for sensitive terrorism and intelligence investigations, he said. But Mueller also said FBI linguists are now connected worldwide so that someone in one office can work on information collected by another office far away. "We agree with (the inspector general) that more remains to be done in our language services program, and we are giving this effort the highest priority," Mueller said.

Response:

Question:

> At best, they are scrip that can be spent only > at the company store, if there is a compnay > store, at whatever "price" the company chooses > to charge from day to day.

And they do change the prices! I was pissed to find that AA had raised the R/T peak, continental U.S. "price" to 50K miles from 40K miles. Reality is that it’s pretty rare to be able to get the off-peak "price" of 25K miles (which used to be 20K miles BTW). The better deal is the non-affiliated credit cards that offer an unrestricted r/t ticket, on any airline, up to $500 for 25K points. You can usually find continental U.S. flights for not much more than $500, even at peak times, though not always the best times. These cards have an annual fee, I pay $40/year for my Visa card. Plus since it’s a real purchased ticket, you get FF miles on the tickets. I actually had to pay for a ticket for the first time in about a decade. Ouch that hurt!

Response:

>The better deal is the non-affiliated credit cards that offer an >unrestricted r/t ticket, on any airline, up to $500 for 25K points. >You can usually find continental U.S. flights for not much more than >$500, even at peak times, though not always the best times.

  Maybe they are a better deal if you don’t fly otherwise, but if you fly   anyway (like those of us who fly on business) and are a few thousand   miles short of an award, how do non-affiliated credit cards help?   You can’t mix and match them with the existing mileage like you can with   affiliated cards, so you need to charge at least $25K before you get any   use out of them.  You can’t get mileage from hotels and car rentals.   International awards are usually terrible, too: some of the ones I’ve   seen don’t offer *any* awards to Asia or Latin America. >These >cards have an annual fee, I pay $40/year for my Visa card. Plus since >it’s a real purchased ticket, you get FF miles on the tickets.

  Or you can pay $30/year for a Starwood AmEx, and be able to top off   any mileage program you already have without waiting to accumulate   $25K or $50K in charges.

Response:

just my luck Mark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When the airline folds so do your FF’s. Had Ansett FF a couple of years > ago > which you could also use on Star Alliance. Lost around 500,000 points. > Use > them ASAP > Too bad.  However, Ansett is the only case I know of where FFs lost their > points.  Neither Swissair or Sabena’s did.

Response:

With Ansett FF points, all members of the FF program that had points became creditors of the liquidated airline.  I am not aware of anybody getting any thing back, though. I cashed in most of my FF points about 6 weeks before Ansett died.  The tickets were for Singapore Airlines.  I was fortunate that Singapore still honoured the tickets, even though it was after Ansett was long gone. I was one of the lucky ones!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> just my luck > Mark >> When the airline folds so do your FF’s. Had Ansett FF a couple of years >> ago >> which you could also use on Star Alliance. Lost around 500,000 points. >> Use >> them ASAP > Too bad.  However, Ansett is the only case I know of where FFs lost their > points.  Neither Swissair or Sabena’s did.

Response:

Yeah, this is scary.  As of July, I now have 25K miles on US Air, just enough to get one precious flight to somewhere.   It’s taken me ten years to accumulate this many miles, because I can’t afford to fly very often.  And now, apparently, unless I can think of somewhere I need to go in the next month or two, I may well lose it all.  Several hundred dollars worth of air travel down the drain.  This really hurts.   Any advice? Liz D. Indianapolis

Response:

> > US Air may not make it… If so, what happens to their frequent flyer miles?  [snip] > [snip[ If you have actual tickets and the airline goes under,other carriers have to provide passage on a standby basis.

This isn’t what United told me this afternoon.  They said they are "not obligated" to honor tickets booked through US Air on a United flight. (That was all they knew… didn’t have any other info or predictions on what they’d do if US Air folds.) Liz D. Indianapolis

Response:

> When the airline folds so do your FF’s. Had Ansett FF a couple of years ago > which you could also use on Star Alliance. Lost around 500,000 points. Use > them ASAP

Too bad.  However, Ansett is the only case I know of where FFs lost their points.  Neither Swissair or Sabena’s did.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> All of them.  For example, this is from the American Airlines > AAdvantage program rules: >        "American Airlines may, in its discretion, change the >        AAdvantage program rules, regulations, travel awards, >        and  special offers at any time with or without notice." >        http://www.aa.com/content/AAdvantage/programDetails/ >        termsAndConditions/termsAndConditions.jhtml >  From that page: > "American Airlines reserves the right to end the AAdvantage program with > six months notice." > This contradicts your statement, theat they can eliminate the program > without notice.

Changing the prgram rules to make it effectively impossible to redeem any points, or eleiminating all members point balances (which they can do) renders the clause about "eliminating" the program effectively meaningless. Frequent flyer miles are not "money in the bank". Edward Hasbrouck <http://hasbrouck.org> "The Practical Nomad: How to Travel Around the World" (3rd edition, February 2004) "The Practical Nomad Guide to the Online Travel Marketplace" <http://www.practicalnomad.com>

Response:

>Under the terms of any of the airlins’ frequent >flyer program, any airline chan change or eliminate >its porgram at any time, without notice, for >any or no reason.  Bankruptcy isn’t necessary.

  Just where do you come up with this nonsense?   “Continental Airlines and all OnePass partners reserve the right   to change any aspect of the OnePass program at any time with 60 days   notice to active members…  Continental Airlines reserves the right   to discontinue the OnePass program with six months notice to members.”   This from http://www.continental.com/onepass/rules/advisory.asp

Response:

When the airline folds so do your FF’s. Had Ansett FF a couple of years ago which you could also use on Star Alliance. Lost around 500,000 points. Use them ASAP Mark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I guess US Air may not make it this time.  If so, what happens to their > frequent flyer miles?  Has anyone had a carrier go under while still > holding FF miles?  I never have but I’m sitting on 50,000 of their miles > right now.  I am wondering if I should use them up real soon (even > though I don’t need to go anywhere) or just sit tight until it all > unfolds. > MARTY

Response:

Cisco troll/pedophile/netkook/asshole Michael Voight sockpuppeting as – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>Use the points, you have absolutely no guarantee >>>>they will exist once the airline stops. >>>The qualifier, "once the airline stops" is not needed. >>>Under the terms of any of the airlins’ frequent >>>flyer program, any airline chan change or eliminate >>>its porgram at any time, without notice, for >>>any or no reason.   >>Which Airline’s FF membership agreement says "without notice". > All of them.  For example, this is from the American Airlines > AAdvantage program rules: >        "American Airlines may, in its discretion, change the >        AAdvantage program rules, regulations, travel awards, >        and  special offers at any time with or without notice." >        http://www.aa.com/content/AAdvantage/programDetails/ >        termsAndConditions/termsAndConditions.jhtml > From that page: >"American Airlines reserves the right to end the AAdvantage program with >six months notice." >This contradicts your statement, theat they can eliminate the program >without notice.

How about the threat of putting pedophiles like you behind bars. About rogue Cisco employee and netkook/troll/usenet flooder Michael Voight, alias "anonymous", "nothilaryduff", "Really Me", "mrtravel", "mrtravelkay", etc. etc. etc. below for a larger list of all his trolling aliases. spaces). Michael D. Voight 111 Bean Creek Rd, No. 118 Scotts Valley,  CA  95066-4148 (8 3 1) 4 3 8 – 2 4 8 5 He is pedophile Gary Burnore’s partner in crime.  Gary Burnore is a convicted sex offender/child molester and the biggest kook in the history of the net. Voight likes to spend his time in the teenage personals newsgroups trying to pick up underage girls. The idiot works for Cisco in their Scotts Valley, California Technical Assistance Center (TAC) and apparently they don’t keep him busy enough so he has to troll usenet newsgroups all day long from work. ***WARNING:  THIS IDIOT HAS BEEN CAUGHT FORGING PEOPLE’S IDENTITIES ON USENET AND CANCELLING THEIR POSTS.*** If you are one of his victims, or are simply fed up with his o . c o m> (remove spaces) . c o m> too (remove spaces). See further below for more Cisco contact information. He often posts through sbcglobal and prodigy, so forward them to His main hangouts (besides the teenage personals newsgroups) are rec.travel.air and alt.visa.us.marriage-based, a sleazy newsgroup where foreigners wanting to immigrate to the US hook up with losers like Voight who are willing to marry them for money so they can get their green card.  Voight is a pro at this, handing out daily advice on how to be a sleazoid like him and sell green cards. When he isn’t giving out advice on how to commit federal crimes on alt.visa.us.marriage-based he is usually on rec.travel.air flooding that newsgroup with trolls and harassing posters and picking retarded fights with the regular posters there. He also tends to post a lot in the personals and penpals newsgroups as well as the support groups for fat people, lonely folks, and for depression.  Obviously after his Russian Internet brides get their green cards they flee, leaving him lonely and desperate for company. Maybe that’s why he keeps a P.O. Box at the post office, so he can get his personals mail there: Voight, Michael P.O. Box 67016, Scotts Valley, CA 95067 (4 0 4 6 1 – 8 7 0 7 The idiot is a two-time high school dropout and had to join the Marines because even the Army rejected him! He’s got a daughter in Orange County that one of his ex-wives had the intelligence to take away from him.  Lord only knows what could have happened to her if she had continued to live with the kook.  The other kids he has belong to his previous Russian sleazy brides, and since they come and go so do the kids.  It wouldn’t hurt to let Cisco know what kind of deviant sexual pervert they have working for them. Many people have wondered how Cisco ever hired such a psycho.  It cheapens their image and credibility in the corporate world after all. Well, they didn’t hire him directly, he came as baggage when they acquired the company he used to work for, TGV Software.  His e-mail All intelligent members of the usenet community have killfiled him, so he takes great pains to get past their killfiles by rubbing his only two cerebral neurons together and coming up with gems like: a y> Some of his other trolling aliases are: l . n e t> Lately he’s had some gender confusion and has been posting as women, such as: Perhaps he’s thinking of getting a sex change (or worse, raping some teenage girls). It would be a good idea to call Cisco at 1-800-553-2447 and ask to speak with a supervisor and explain that you are EXTREMELY unhappy that this idiot spends his whole day at work playing on the internet on company time.  THEY WILL NOT LIKE THAT. Then write to corporate headquarters explaining what this idiot is doing and telling them HOW BAD IT IS FOR THEIR COMPANY IMAGE.  They will LOVE that you brought this to their attention: Cisco Systems, Inc. 170 West Tasman Dr. San Jose, CA 95134 USA Then also call them.  You should always follow up email or letters with phone calls.  Always ask for supervisors or managers.  Try to get as far up as possible. (408)526-4000 (800)553-NETS or (800)553-6387 Contact Investor Relations and tell them you are interested in investing in their company but won’t do so until they get rid of this asshole who is wasting company resources: Cisco Systems, Inc. Investor Relations Department 170 West Tasman Drive San Jose, CA 95134-1706 Phone: (408) 526-8890 Fax: (408) 526-4545 Might as well contact customer service too, they LOVE to hear about this type of stuff: USA 1 800 553 6387 Then finally, send letters with copies of his nasty posts addressed personally to each one of the OFFICERS of the company using the headquarters address.  Believe me, they READ your complaints and are VERY INTERESTED in them, especially if it’s about one of their employees.  They will take a PERSONAL interest in rooting this ASSHOLE out of their company: John Morgridge, Chairman Phone: (408) 526-8229 Fax: (408) 526-4100 John Chambers, President, CEO Phone: (408) 526-8222 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Larry Carter, CFO, Sr. VP-Fin. and Admin., Sec., Director Phone: (408) 526-8211 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Richard Justice, Sr. VP, Worldwide Field Operations Phone: (408) 527-7371 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Brad Boston,Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer Phone: (408) 526-7008 Fax: (408) 526-8220 Susan Lori Bostrom Senior Vice President, Internet Business Solutions Group Phone: (408) 527-5648 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Howard S. Charney Senior Vice President, Office of the President Phone: (408) 526-8300 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Kate DCamp Senior Vice President, Human Resources Phone: (408) 527-9530 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Gail Morales Manager, Human Resources, Employment Phone: (408) 527-6654 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Peggy Lynch Employee Benefits Phone: (408) 526-8859 Fax: (408) 527-6080 Mario Mazzola Senior Vice President and Chief Development Officer Phone: (408) 526-5535 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Betsy Rafael Vice President and Corporate Controller Phone: (408) 525-0164 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Claudia Ceniceros Manager, Public Relations Phone: (408) 525-4700 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Write, call, and fax: Cisco Systems, Inc. 170 West Tasman Drive San Jose, California 95134-1706, USA Phone: (408) 526-4000 Fax: (408) 526-4100 (800)553-NETS = (800)553-6387 Have fun! — Questo messaggio e’ stato inoltrato automaticamente da un paio di anonymous remailer. Il mittente originale e’ sconosciuto e non identificabile. Datevi pace.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>Use the points, you have absolutely no guarantee >>>they will exist once the airline stops. >>The qualifier, "once the airline stops" is not needed. >>Under the terms of any of the airlins’ frequent >>flyer program, any airline chan change or eliminate >>its porgram at any time, without notice, for >>any or no reason.   >Which Airline’s FF membership agreement says "without notice". > All of them.  For example, this is from the American Airlines > AAdvantage program rules: >    "American Airlines may, in its discretion, change the >    AAdvantage program rules, regulations, travel awards, >    and  special offers at any time with or without notice." >    http://www.aa.com/content/AAdvantage/programDetails/ >    termsAndConditions/termsAndConditions.jhtml

 From that page: "American Airlines reserves the right to end the AAdvantage program with six months notice." This contradicts your statement, theat they can eliminate the program without notice.

Response:

> Use the points, you have absolutely no guarantee > they will exist once the airline stops.

The qualifier, "once the airline stops" is not needed. Under the terms of any of the airlins’ frequent flyer program, any airline chan change or eliminate its porgram at any time, without notice, for any or no reason.  Bankruptcy isn’t necessary. Some people think of frequent flyer mileage credits as "money in the bank". But they are not.   At best, they are scrip that can be spent only at the company store, if there is a compnay store, at whatever "price" the company chooses to charge from day to day. Edward Hasbrouck <http://hasbrouck.org> "The Practical Nomad: How to Travel Around the World" (3rd edition, February 2004) "The Practical Nomad Guide to the Online Travel Marketplace" <http://www.practicalnomad.com>

Response:

So if I book a flight now using FF miles (Dividend Miles) with US Air for, say, the first full week in December, and they file Chapter 7 sometime in November, would my ticket be honored by anyone? I don’t know if I can, but if the flight was partially (1 leg) or fully with another carrier such as United, would this be honored? Best educated guesses are better than nothing bex

Response:

>So if I book a flight now using FF miles (Dividend Miles) with US Air for, >say, the first full week in December, and they file Chapter 7 sometime in >November, would my ticket be honored by anyone?

Very unlikely. Such tickets are usually non-endorseable. >I don’t know if I can, but if the flight was partially (1 leg) or fully with >another carrier such as United, would this be honored?

Probably the legs on that carrier. But if you don’t fly the first leg, the entire ticket usually gets dumped.

Response:

>>Use the points, you have absolutely no guarantee >they will exist once the airline stops. > The qualifier, "once the airline stops" is not needed. > Under the terms of any of the airlins’ frequent > flyer program, any airline chan change or eliminate > its porgram at any time, without notice, for > any or no reason.  

Which Airline’s FF membership agreement says "without notice".

Response:

For an airline such as US Air, if it were to fold, it is not unlikely that some other airline would buy the FF points and database from the liquidators as a fairly cost effective means to acquire the loyalty of the former US Air customers. If you convert points now into tickets, and US Air stops flying before those tickets are used, then in all lieklyhood, those tickets will be unusable. You then become one of the lowest creditor behind everyone else. Your only hope is that anothert airline agrees to take over this liability as partial payment for some other US Air assets, but then, you’d likely be on some stand-by basis in an alrteady way overbooke industry until the load formerly handled by US Air has been absorbed by other carriers.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Use the points, you have absolutely no guarantee >>they will exist once the airline stops. > The qualifier, "once the airline stops" is not needed. > Under the terms of any of the airlins’ frequent > flyer program, any airline chan change or eliminate > its porgram at any time, without notice, for > any or no reason.   > Which Airline’s FF membership agreement says "without notice".

All of them.  For example, this is from the American Airlines AAdvantage program rules:         "American Airlines may, in its discretion, change the         AAdvantage program rules, regulations, travel awards,         and  special offers at any time with or without notice."         http://www.aa.com/content/AAdvantage/programDetails/         termsAndConditions/termsAndConditions.jhtml And this is from the United Mileage Plus rules:         United may change Mileage Plus Program rules,         regulations, travel awards and special offers or         terminate the Mileage Plus program at any time and         without notice.         http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6722,50450,00.html All the others have some form of the same language. Edward Hasbrouck <http://hasbrouck.org> "The Practical Nomad: How to Travel Around the World" (3rd edition, February 2004) "The Practical Nomad Guide to the Online Travel Marketplace" <http://www.practicalnomad.com>

Response:

>>Use the points, you have absolutely no guarantee they will exist once the >airline stops. >   This got me thinking… Which airlines’ frequent flyer points did *not* >   survive the airline’s demise?  PanAm, Eastern, TWA miles all survived. >   I think miles in Continental’s program (whatever it was called at the >   time… TravelBank?) were canceled in the first bankruptcy.  Markair and >   Western Pacific had FF programs of some kind which did not survive the >   bankruptcy, but USAir is a much bigger airline.  It’s hard to imagine >   that their FF points will disappear when they go out of business.

Swissair and Sabena’s survived. Ansett did not.

Response:

Thanks for the tip.  I’ll be on my way next week!! MARTY

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