Air Travel

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->                 Carmen Ng’s coments re: >                 ["...most travellers don't care if >                 HK is under British or Chinese >                 rule..."] >I care! Mainland China has one problem that the British that ruled HK do >not have: a lack of a free and democratic system of government and a >lack of a free press where journalists can freely express thoughts and >ideas. > Well, even under the British rule, HK wasn’t very democratic.  The > British rulers started implementing democracy into Hong Kong’s > government only after Britain had agreed to return Hong Kong to China.

Regretably late, but not a bad idea of sorts, or was it ? At least the British began something which the Chinese were quick to tear apart, even before their flag was flying above the city. At least, Hong Kong has a fair an impartial court system, which is not the case up North. How long until China decides Hong Kong laws are just as much a pain in their ass as the bits of democracy introduced by the British ? > Although, I’m very skeptic about the Chinese rule, the economy has been > running reasonably well since the British left.  There were a few > demonstrations that were not interfered.  Even on October 10th, > Taiwan’s Republic of China (Mainland China’s enemy) flags appeared in > many places in HK.  HK under the Chinese rule is not as bad as you > may think.

As far as the economy is concered, all they have had to do so far is sit back and let things go their own way. No sense in fixing what’s not broke. Speaking of the demonstrations and the flag, give some credits to Chinese rulers for brains. They wouldn’t be where they are now if they were dumb. They know much better than throw a few flag wavers ans protesters in jail when CNN and the rest of world media would be on their back in 2 seconds flat. They’d rather play with the electoral law to make sure the opposition has no chance of graduating to something else, like former opposition. And that is far less sexy to be shown on TV.

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This is certainly a thread which  interests a number of people. My thanks to Joe Curry for his fare info.  Regretably, I am not under 26 or a student. I went to HK for personal reasons and i liked it after I had sorted out the best places for me.  One problem is that confidence has gone and the Chinese do not approve of a ‘fun’  way of life.  I understand that a man cannot bring any woman to his hotel room unless she is his wife.  I was told I could not  visit my Chinese girlfriend’s village (in central China) unless I was going   to  marry her.  In any case, there was nowhere to stay because foreigners   are barred from staying overnight in private houses. Her area is not open   to tourists obviously. Is HK suffering from the same archaic rules now?   Does one need a visa to go there?.   Actually, I would like to see HK decline to the extent that China would be   glad to lease it to Britain again. This would restore its fortunes rapidly.   What has happened to the democracy movement in HK?   I could go on but it is late and I am on jury service with an early start   tomorrow.  Best wishes to all readers. –T.A.Hayes

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Air Travel to Hong Kong has declined sharply since Britain handed over >>control to China. Most airlines have been forced to cut fares and >>some  are running at levels last seen 20 years ago. >>The halcyon days of tourism in the former colony are also a thing of the >>past with hotel occupancy, spending etc down by 60%. Its seems that the >>new airport could become something of a ‘white elephant’ unless the new >>administration act swiftly to halt the decline. >After the all-around cheerfulness experienced during the handover died >down, reality sets in.  People flocked to H.K. because it was British. >Why go now that it’s Chinese? >No. We had a travel boom because people wanted to see HK before the >return to China. Now they have a centuries time to do the planning. >This situation was expected.

The situation was so "expected" that Cathay Pacific is bleeding all over, with all execs wondering what they are going to do to recover the 67% dive their load took on some destinations while pondering whether they should cancel the orders for the remaining aircraft to be delivered this year (which they eventually decided not to do). They’re also introducing the best bargain the Pacific has ever seen in years. $999 from LAX or JFK to HKG and 17 other cities in Asia at will. They’re flying travel agents from all over the world to the city to show them it hasn’t been affected by China taking over. At least, all those agents make the planes look full… Now, does that really sound like something that was entirely expected or someone being caught pants down while travellers loose confidence/interest in Hong Kong since around June, for whatever reason ? If the trend is not reversed soon, I will agree with Joe all the way, even putting the life of Cathay as we know it in the balance. Don’t forget the airline’s profits are derived mainly (around 80%) from trips originating outside Hong Kong. I read the posts suggesting that better facilities and business climate make it less necessary for Occidental businness travellers to fly to Hong Kong instead of going directly into China, but I think it is quite a coincidence that Cathay’s (and Dragonair and Air Hong Kong and other travel related businesses) woes began around the time Hong Kong was returned to Chines rule.

Response:

>How about returning to one of the questions on the original post: >What will the effects of this downturn be on Chek Lap Kok, the new >airport?  Someone whispered the words, "White Elephant."  What would it >take for the new $20 Billion (USD) facility to become a white elephant?   >Obviously we can’t predict how long this downturn will last, but can we >predict the effects on the new airport if the downturn is longer than >just a year or so? >    I don’t know much about Hong Kong, but I am interested in its new >airport, and now wonder what may happen with it.

The airport authority has just announced charges at the new airport will only be 20-40% higher than the current charges at Kai Tak. Last year, the plan was to double the charges.  Cathay Pacific and many other foreign airlines strongly protested the proposed charges. IMHO, the new airport will not get as much traffic as it was originally projected.  I think that’s a big reason behind the new reduced fees. However, I seriously doubt the airport will be a "White Elephant."

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>> What will the effects of this downturn be on Chek Lap Kok, the new > airport?  Someone whispered the words, "White Elephant."  What would it > take for the new $20 Billion (USD) facility to become a white elephant? >If, as I heard, Kai Tak’s land will be sold/developped, then the $20 >billion cost for Chek Lap Kok will not look so bad. >I think that the "decline" is not that serious. The changes had >artificially inflated travel demands in the last couple of years and >now  that catalyst is gone. But growth will still occur. Lots of Hong >Kong expats are returning to Hong Kong now. Hong Kong will remain the >"civilised" gateway to China for some time to come.

Don’t forget that China is world’s biggest growth economies. It’s foreign reserve is edging Japan’s. HK has always been the southern gateway for China for centuries and it’s role will not change. There will be plenty of uses for Chek Lap Kok Airport in the years to come. Relax… –Weiyun

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Air Travel to Hong Kong has declined sharply since Britain handed over >>control to China. Most airlines have been forced to cut fares and >>some  are running at levels last seen 20 years ago. >>The halcyon days of tourism in the former colony are also a thing of the >>past with hotel occupancy, spending etc down by 60%. Its seems that the >>new airport could become something of a ‘white elephant’ unless the new >>administration act swiftly to halt the decline. >After the all-around cheerfulness experienced during the handover died >down, reality sets in.  People flocked to H.K. because it was British. >Why go now that it’s Chinese? > No. We had a travel boom because people wanted to see HK before the > return to China. Now they have a centuries time to do the planning. > This situation was expected. > The problem I see is rather that HK is having little to offer – for a > high price. There are no shopping bargains now and everything is too > expensive. > BHY, Hong Kong

For me, Hong Kong offers Dan O’Ryan’s where I can get a steak and a salad after a week in China.  I like Chinese food, even the snails and the eels and the rooster testicles, but my North American metabolism suffers after a week of it. Steve

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Not to mention the outlying islands, more food, the multitudinous forms of fascinating transport, more food, did I mention food, the views of the sea, the mountains — no better place in the world!  Yes, it’s pricey, but so’s London and plenty of other places.  And not much has changed about daily life or tourism, so come and enjoy, and don’t post snide messages if you haven’t! SJM in HKG

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>How about returning to one of the questions on the original post: >What will the effects of this downturn be on Chek Lap Kok, the new >airport?  Someone whispered the words, "White Elephant."  What would it >take for the new $20 Billion (USD) facility to become a white elephant?   >Obviously we can’t predict how long this downturn will last, but can we >predict the effects on the new airport if the downturn is longer than >just a year or so? >    I don’t know much about Hong Kong, but I am interested in its new >airport, and now wonder what may happen with it.

The tourist industry represents only part of the overall economy of Hong Kong, and I don’t think the downturn in this sector is significant enough to have much effect on the airport. Kai Tak has been bursting at the seams for a long time now, and there would have to be a big drop in the general economic situation in HK to affect the viability of Chek Lap Kok. –Chris Tel:   +82 (2) 270 3627 Fax:   +82 (2) 272 0773 WWW:   http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1374996 ICQ:   1374996

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I agree totally. Hong Kong is attractive for its dynamic life. All the department stores open upto 10:00pm. Therefore, you got plenty of time for shopping. The discos, bars and karaokes were open all night. Hong Kong is not a suitable place for shopping if you look for some famous designer brands, e.g. Channel, Gucci, etc. since these products are much expensive in Hong Kong. But it is a good place if you look for some lower end products. You can get a brand new electronic watch for just HK$30(Mable Road, North Point). As Diana said, Beverly Commercial Centre is a good place for tiny designer boutiques, you may also go to Grand Tower Centre (beside Grand Tower Hotel at Nathan Road in Mong Kok) and Sincere House (Argyle Street, Mong Kok). Tung Choi Street (also known as Women’s Street) is famous for its hawker stalls selling low-priced clothings but I would suggest you to go onwards to Fa Yuen Street. The first part of the street is famous for selling sports related products(e.g.sport shoes and rackets) and the second part is for returned export clothings. The cost of transportation within the city is low. A ride on the tram costs only HK$1.6(about US$0.2). You can have a good look of the city on the upper deck. The Mass Transit Railway costs from HK$4-HK$13 (US$0.5-US$1.7). If you like to watch a movie, go on Tuesday. The fare is only HK$30(US$3.8) each. I hope you all enjoy your stay in Hong Kong.

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>                 Carmen Ng’s coments re: >                 ["...most travellers don't care if >                 HK is under British or Chinese >                 rule..."] >I care! Mainland China has one problem that the British that ruled HK do >not have: a lack of a free and democratic system of government and a >lack of a free press where journalists can freely express thoughts and >ideas.

Sure they can, just not for long that’s all

Response:

So go to Macau.  It’s still Portuguese, and will remain so until 12/31/99.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I care! Mainland China has one problem that the British that ruled HK do >not have: a lack of a free and democratic system of government and a >lack of a free press where journalists can freely express thoughts and >ideas. >How quickly we forget Tianemen Square! > And Kent State. >  – Craig > email: craig at pacific dot net dot sg

Thanks, Craig, I was pondering a suitable retort.  I was thinking along the more ancient lines of Manifest Destiny or the Peculiar Institution but you brought up a more recent and appropriate incident. The point is, we "Americans" (citizens of the U.S.) have a tendency to praise "diversity" when it consists of languages, arts and family customs but we are quick to condemn the seamier side of diversity, while ignoring our own brutalities. China is a nation of 1.2 billion people, most of whom are crowded, under great stress, in the arable land along the coast.  I respect and admire them for their survival and tenacity and I would return in a second, given an opportunity.  Tiananmen Square was an ugly incident but that does not make China an ugly land. Steve

Response:

How about returning to one of the questions on the original post: What will the effects of this downturn be on Chek Lap Kok, the new airport?  Someone whispered the words, "White Elephant."  What would it take for the new $20 Billion (USD) facility to become a white elephant?   Obviously we can’t predict how long this downturn will last, but can we predict the effects on the new airport if the downturn is longer than just a year or so?         I don’t know much about Hong Kong, but I am interested in its new airport, and now wonder what may happen with it.         Stephen

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> What will the effects of this downturn be on Chek Lap Kok, the new > airport?  Someone whispered the words, "White Elephant."  What would it > take for the new $20 Billion (USD) facility to become a white elephant?

If, as I heard, Kai Tak’s land will be sold/developped, then the $20 billion cost for Chek Lap Kok will not look so bad. I think that the "decline" is not that serious. The changes had artificially inflated travel demands in the last couple of years and now  that catalyst is gone. But growth will still occur. Lots of Hong Kong expats are returning to Hong Kong now. Hong Kong will remain the "civilised" gateway to China for some time to come.

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I was in HK last year and I quite agree that it is not a good  shopping place for persons from Europe particularly Tsim Sha Tsui. I tried to bargain  for goods but shop assistants were not interested. Their prices were higher than the LHR duty free.  Silk goods were more expensive than in the UK. While there are enough tourists with more money than sense,  the position will not change but supply and demand  may force down prices. I am a traveller rather than a tourist and so I   sought out  cheaper places to shop and stay. I found bargains in the end but it was not easy. I am glad that the air fares are coming down. There is a Chinese girl I would  like to meet again but I am still paying for last year’s trip and I would   have to pay her fare from central China too. She may think I’m rich but I’m   far from it. I had hoped to get a really low cost ticket in the Lufthansa auction  but they made silly prices.  Only a few pounds less than a discount ticket and then just for a few nights stay.   There were many fools bidding is all I can say. Hong Kong needs cheap air fares, under 300 pounds for a 3/4 week return trip and good basic accommodation at 30 pounds per room per night.   –T.A.Hayes

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I think the decline comes mainly from the cost of holidaying in H.K. Ridiculously expensive hotels (figure US$230+ / night  + tax for anything decent and name-branded) and expensive meals, and shopping that is not a bargain especially if you can get the stuff at home (my friends who moved there from Manhattan had that hit them in the face very early on)..  If you’re not there to shop, there is certainly precious little to do (Singapore’s retail economy has also been long suffering due to high rents/prices FWIW) The excess of money has driven up real estate prices and thus driven up rent for the shops and restaurants (they are not to blame).  The hotels in collusion all agreed to raise their prices early in the year AND required a minimum stay of 5 nights with guarantee.  No wonder discretionary travellers balked.. As for Cathay Pacific?  I couldn’t be happier to see anyone suffer more.

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>: After the all-around cheerfulness experienced during the handover died >: down, reality sets in.  People flocked to H.K. because it was British. >: Why go now that it’s Chinese?  If people want to see China, they’re >: not going to go to H.K. to see it, they’re going to go to Beijing…or >: Shanghai…or… >I do not understand why people traveled to HK because it was British.   >For travelers, it does not matter whether HK is under British or >Chinese.  They just want to see the place and maybe do some shopping. >By the way,  every city is different.  Shanghai offers different things >from Beijing.  It maybe naive to say that you have seen the whole China >after only visiting Shanghai or Beijing.  HK is a unique city in the >world, it blends the two different cultures of British and Chinese >together.  It is definitely a place worth visiting.  

I can assure you that my reason for going to HK was NOT that it was British! (If visiting a British locale were my goal, a trip to England would have been faster and cheaper for me… )

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>                 Carmen Ng’s coments re: >                 ["...most travellers don't care if >                 HK is under British or Chinese >                 rule..."] >I care! Mainland China has one problem that the British that ruled HK do >not have: a lack of a free and democratic system of government and a >lack of a free press where journalists can freely express thoughts and >ideas.

Well, even under the British rule, HK wasn’t very democratic.  The British rulers started implementing democracy into Hong Kong’s government only after Britain had agreed to return Hong Kong to China. Before the agreement, HK did not really have a free press; public "gatherings" (i.e., protests) of more than three people needed official approvals from the police. Although, I’m very skeptic about the Chinese rule, the economy has been running reasonably well since the British left.  There were a few demonstrations that were not interfered.  Even on October 10th, Taiwan’s Republic of China (Mainland China’s enemy) flags appeared in many places in HK.  HK under the Chinese rule is not as bad as you may think.

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> The problem I see is rather that HK is having little to offer – for a > high price. There are no shopping bargains now and everything is too > expensive. > BHY, Hong Kong

Hong Kong has plenty to offer. The problem is that Hong Kong Tourist Association doesn’t realize it. They continue to market aspects of Hong Kong that attracted people in the 80s but are no longer relevant. Shopping bargains are a perfect example. Hong Kong tourist association continues to maintain that Hong Kong is bargain city. This is nonsense. Hong Kong WAS a great place for bargains 20 years ago. But now the garment factories have mostly moved to China and apart from a few scattered outlets, pickings are slim. The same goes for electrical equipment. Unless you’re Japanese/Taiwanese or have more money than sense, forget about shopping. BUT that doesn’t mean that Hong Kong isn’t worth visiting. It really annoys me when people come to Hong Kong and insist on looking for "old Hong Kong". Why don’t they look at Hong Kong today. How about the amazing architecture – the Bank of China, Central Plaza, Lippo Center,Tsing Ma bridge, Convention and Exhibition Center – these places are incredible. If you’re on the large size forget about clothes, but, you know what, some people are small!!! Check out the Beverly Center and the Island Beverly in Causeway Bay. Hundreds upon hundreds of tiny designer boutiques selling original, outlandish, beautiful clothes. And even if you are big, there are plenty of jewelry stores and bag shops. And they’re cheap. Karaoke! The most fun you can have with a cushion and a microphone;-) Horse racing. The massive stadium in Happy Valley – must be the most expensive piece of grass in the world. So many people crammed together with just one thought on their mind. The atmosphere is like being at the center of a typhoon. Peaceful but explosive. The horses are beautiful. AND IT ONLY COSTS HK$10! (although you can lose a lot more than that, obviously) Hong Kong movies!!! You haven’t really seen a hong Kong movie till you’ve seen one in Mong Kok. Hot-pots washed down with Tsing Tao beer. Ask for extra chilli sauce. Food. Hong Kong food. It’s worth visiting just to eat. (But you need to step out of the hotels, otherwise don’t blame me if you get ripped off.) Maybe it’s just me but I really get a kick out of going out to the industrial areas. All that activity. Could it be the smell of money;-) Trams. Sitting on the front of a tram from Chai Wan to Kennedy Town. The most fun you can have for HK$1.20 (Hong Kong too expensive? Nonsense! (nb I am Scottish)) Chinese Opera. And I’m not talking about street shows in Temple Street. I’m talking Sunshine theatre in North Point. OOOh la la. It’s mad and bad. (honestly) (and cheap) Ma Liu Shui. Worth visiting just so that you can tell people you once had dinner al fresco in a place called "Horse Piss Pond" I could go on. I could go on for hours. If crappy old Hong Kong Tourist Association would stop churning out the cliches and tell people what Hong Kong is really like, maybe more people would come. I think they are afraid to tell people that HK is overcrowded, noisy and dirty so they try to gloss it over. They tell people to go to all the boring places like Stanley and Western Market or that theme park in Kwai Chung. But I don’t think people actually mind Hong Kong’s rough edges. Tourists don’t come to Hong Kong because they heard it was "nice" anyway (it isn’t). They come because they heard it was exciting and dynamic. And it is, but only if you’re prepared to take it the way you find it. Hey this letter’s pretty good. I think I might send a copy to the newspapers. It’s all more publicity for my site after all http://www.asiantravel.com/hongkong Diana

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>Air Travel to Hong Kong has declined sharply since Britain handed over >control to China. Most airlines have been forced to cut fares and >some  are running at levels last seen 20 years ago. >The halcyon days of tourism in the former colony are also a thing of the >past with hotel occupancy, spending etc down by 60%. Its seems that the >new airport could become something of a ‘white elephant’ unless the new >administration act swiftly to halt the decline.

I was there last weekend, and the downturn in the tourist business is definitely having an effect on prices. The cheapest airfare I found to Hong Kong (from Korea) turned out to be on Cathay Pacific, normally one of the most expensive carriers. Hotel prices are also down. They maintain the same rack rates, but you can pick up some good deals from the HK Hotel Association desk in the arrivals area at Kai Tak. They offered me the Wharney Hotel in Wanchai for HK$880 per night. I don’t remember prices at that hotel ever being that low. –Chris Tel:   +82 (2) 270 3627 Fax:   +82 (2) 272 0773 WWW:   http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1374996 ICQ:   1374996

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                 Carmen Ng’s coments re:                  ["...most travellers don't care if                  HK is under British or Chinese                  rule..."] I care! Mainland China has one problem that the British that ruled HK do not have: a lack of a free and democratic system of government and a lack of a free press where journalists can freely express thoughts and ideas. How quickly we forget Tianemen Square! Maryanne.

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Air Travel to Hong Kong has declined sharply since Britain handed over control to China. Most airlines have been forced to cut fares and some  are running at levels last seen 20 years ago. The halcyon days of tourism in the former colony are also a thing of the past with hotel occupancy, spending etc down by 60%. Its seems that the new airport could become something of a ‘white elephant’ unless the new administration act swiftly to halt the decline. Joe Curry fox-1 is anti-spam – correct address is ability at zetnet dot co dot uk

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>I hear the folks over at Cathay Pacific are in panic mode.

You would think they would have seen coming, wouldn’t you? After all, the surrender of HK wasn’t precisely a surprise, was it? Luc — The University of Calgary,         Department of Mechanical Engineering Phone: (403) 220 5792              Fax: (403) 282 8406 http://www.ucalgary.ca/~bauwens/                

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: After the all-around cheerfulness experienced during the handover died : down, reality sets in.  People flocked to H.K. because it was British. : Why go now that it’s Chinese?  If people want to see China, they’re : not going to go to H.K. to see it, they’re going to go to Beijing…or : Shanghai…or… I do not understand why people traveled to HK because it was British.   For travelers, it does not matter whether HK is under British or Chinese.  They just want to see the place and maybe do some shopping. By the way,  every city is different.  Shanghai offers different things from Beijing.  It maybe naive to say that you have seen the whole China after only visiting Shanghai or Beijing.  HK is a unique city in the world, it blends the two different cultures of British and Chinese together.  It is definitely a place worth visiting.  

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>>Air Travel to Hong Kong has declined sharply since Britain handed over >control to China. Most airlines have been forced to cut fares and >some  are running at levels last seen 20 years ago. >The halcyon days of tourism in the former colony are also a thing of the >past with hotel occupancy, spending etc down by 60%. Its seems that the >new airport could become something of a ‘white elephant’ unless the new >administration act swiftly to halt the decline. >After the all-around cheerfulness experienced during the handover died >down, reality sets in.  People flocked to H.K. because it was British. >Why go now that it’s Chinese?

No. We had a travel boom because people wanted to see HK before the return to China. Now they have a centuries time to do the planning. This situation was expected. The problem I see is rather that HK is having little to offer – for a high price. There are no shopping bargains now and everything is too expensive. BHY, Hong Kong

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