Air Travel

Question:

>>        They’re not flying themselves, they have a deal with a Kelowna >B.C. air service.  The planes (727’s) are in Greyhound colors and >Greyhound does the reservations,etc.  The CEO of GLC comes from the >airline industry and thought that , rather than lose market share to >airlines, he would integrate air and ground travel. >Not to mention that they are pushing their ability to provide flights >that effectively serve more remote locations via bus connections.

Maybe someone should try that here in the US. Buy up both Southwest and Greyhound, and market the new service as an integrated system (with through ticketing, etc.)

Response:

>>>        They’re not flying themselves, they have a deal with a Kelowna >>B.C. air service.  The planes (727’s) are in Greyhound colors and >>Greyhound does the reservations,etc.  The CEO of GLC comes from the >>airline industry and thought that , rather than lose market share to >>airlines, he would integrate air and ground travel. >Not to mention that they are pushing their ability to provide flights >that effectively serve more remote locations via bus connections. >Maybe someone should try that here in the US. Buy up both Southwest >and Greyhound, and market the new service as an integrated system >(with through ticketing, etc.)

I am sure that there are other airlines that do this, but TWA does this in Italy.  They fly into Milan and Rome, but you can take a bus provided by them to two or three other cities (Venice and Florence, I believe, but I’m not positive). —

Response:

> Maybe someone should try that here in the US. Buy up both Southwest > and Greyhound, and market the new service as an integrated system > (with through ticketing, etc.)

Greyhound in the USA is not doing too well. There is already a lot of competition for low fares in the states by established carriers. So Greyhound (USA) would have a hard time finding the resources to start and last long enough to gain recognition. Remember that Greyhound Canada with Kelowna Flight Craft are starting up with old 727s.  I guess they hope to get enough money in the short term to be able to either buy new planes or hushkit their noisy 727s before the deadlines. Note that the Greyhound planes do not have the greyhound logo. They will have a combined greyhound and Kelowna Flight Craft logo.

Response:

>>Maybe someone should try that here in the US. Buy up both Southwest >and Greyhound, and market the new service as an integrated system >(with through ticketing, etc.) >I am sure that there are other airlines that do this, but TWA does this in >Italy.  They fly into Milan and Rome, but you can take a bus provided by them >to two or three other cities (Venice and Florence, I believe, but I’m not >positive).

A few more airline owned (or sponsored) buses that I know of: Air France bus between one (or both) of the Paris airports and the city. SAS bus between airport and Stockholm city (I have an old schedule for this, somewhere). At one time (maybe still in effect), United had a through ticket arrangement with a bus between OHare and Peoria/Rockford. Someone in another rec.travel group mentioned a Kenya Airlines bus between the airport and the city. (Most of these are available to all passengers, regardless of the airline used to fly into the city . . .) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->–

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> [snip] >A few more airline owned (or sponsored) buses that I know of: >Air France bus between one (or both) of the Paris airports and the city. >SAS bus between airport and Stockholm city (I have an old schedule for >this, somewhere). >At one time (maybe still in effect), United had a through ticket arrangement >with a bus between OHare and Peoria/Rockford. >Someone in another rec.travel group mentioned a Kenya Airlines bus >between the airport and the city. >(Most of these are available to all passengers, regardless of the >airline used to fly into the city . . .)

America West (HP) operates buses between Sky Harbor Int’l (Phoenix) and Scottsdale (or at least they used to).  They were flight numbered in the 5000 (IIRC) series and featured thru ticketing and baggage checking, and the bus would actually pick up at a terminal gate.  The security screening (i.e., metal detecting) was done at Phoenix; I’m not sure if the bus had a special drop off point for passengers, as the passengers would be checked in at the Scottsdale terminal.  Of course now with the greater security screening in effect they may not be doing check-in at Scottsdale any more, if they are still operating the service. Later, Ray — M. Ray Mullins, Arlington TX (the largest city without a transit system,         and site of the regional headquarters of the FTA) http://www.lerctr.org/~mrm; SoCalTIP: http://socaltip.lerctr.org

Response:

>>>        They’re not flying themselves, they have a deal with a Kelowna >>B.C. air service.  The planes (727’s) are in Greyhound colors and >>Greyhound does the reservations,etc.  The CEO of GLC comes from the >>airline industry and thought that , rather than lose market share to >>airlines, he would integrate air and ground travel. >Not to mention that they are pushing their ability to provide flights >that effectively serve more remote locations via bus connections. > Maybe someone should try that here in the US. Buy up both Southwest > and Greyhound, and market the new service as an integrated system > (with through ticketing, etc.)

It is encouraging in recent years that various modes have started paying more attention to each other. Amtrak and VIA used to see themselves in competition with intercity buses, but in the last decade, there have been a lot of new multimodal terminals built served by both bus and rail. It is encouraging to see the same thing happening with buses and air. Now if only we could fix the North American obsession toward not providing good urban rapid transit service to airports, we’d be all set! — ##### _||   |/|_  Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice. ##### >         <  Opinions are my own. Consider them shareware if you want.

Response:

>>>Not to mention that they are pushing their ability to provide flights >>that effectively serve more remote locations via bus connections. >Maybe someone should try that here in the US. Buy up both Southwest >and Greyhound, and market the new service as an integrated system >(with through ticketing, etc.) > I am sure that there are other airlines that do this, but TWA does this in > Italy.  They fly into Milan and Rome, but you can take a bus provided by them > to two or three other cities (Venice and Florence, I believe, but I’m not > positive).

It’s becoming more common to see buses painted in the colours of assorted airlines providing connecting service to smaller cities. Tom, if you’re reading this, that creampuff blue&white  bus you were wondering about on the Mirabel-Ottawa run was a KLM bus (likely chartered from Voyageur or one of the others; I didn’t get a close look at it). I saw it here in Ottawa a while back. AFAIK it’s not somebody else taking over the Mirabel-Ottawa run from Voyageur. — ##### _||   |/|_  Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice. ##### >         <  Opinions are my own. Consider them shareware if you want.

Response:

> Tom, if you’re reading this, that creampuff blue&white  bus you were > wondering about on the Mirabel-Ottawa run was a KLM bus (likely chartered > from Voyageur or one of the others; I didn’t get a close look at it). I > saw it here in Ottawa a while back. AFAIK it’s not somebody else taking > over the Mirabel-Ottawa run from Voyageur.

KLM has a flight to Ottawa (YOW) That flight involves change of equipment. At Mirabel, passengers go through customs and then board a KLM bus to Ottawa. But that bus has a flight number. Same is done with Air France, and I beleive British Aisways (not sure about BA). The bus ride from Mirabel to Ottawa is shorter than From Dorval to Ottawa, so foreign airlines prefer Mirabel for these flights (they are not bothered by duplication of staff since they have no staff at Dorval to begin with). On top of these special buses are regularly scheduled Voyageur buses (although the name may change soon) between Ottawa and Mirabel. There are also buses from Mirabel to Quebec City (although there are also flights available from Mirabel on small planes)

Response:

: > : >>>Not to mention that they are pushing their ability to provide flights : >>>that effectively serve more remote locations via bus connections. : > : >>Maybe someone should try that here in the US. Buy up both Southwest : >>and Greyhound, and market the new service as an integrated system : >>(with through ticketing, etc.) Want to hear something interesting? VIA Rail, the Canadian passenger rail system, made a deal with Trentway-Wagar bus lines to take passengers. The odd irony? Bus and rail compete AND VIA Rail used to service my hometown, Peterborough, Ontario, which is also the head office of Trentway. : > : > I am sure that there are other airlines that do this, but TWA does this in : > Italy.  They fly into Milan and Rome, but you can take a bus provided by them : > to two or three other cities (Venice and Florence, I believe, but I’m not : > positive). : It’s becoming more common to see buses painted in the colours of assorted : airlines providing connecting service to smaller cities. : Tom, if you’re reading this, that creampuff blue&white  bus you were : wondering about on the Mirabel-Ottawa run was a KLM bus (likely chartered : from Voyageur or one of the others; I didn’t get a close look at it). I : saw it here in Ottawa a while back. AFAIK it’s not somebody else taking : over the Mirabel-Ottawa run from Voyageur. Actually, I understand that Voyageur has been selling it’s routes left, right and centre. It wouldn’t surprise me if they’re consolidating their operations to somewhere else (ie., Quebec). Shawn Berry http://www.ptbo.igs.net/~shawn : — : ##### _||   |/|_  Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice. : ##### >         <  Opinions are my own. Consider them shareware if you want. — Shawn Berry   http://www.ptbo.igs.net/~shawn    

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >: > >: >>>Not to mention that they are pushing their ability to provide flights >: >>>that effectively serve more remote locations via bus connections. >: > >: >>Maybe someone should try that here in the US. Buy up both Southwest >: >>and Greyhound, and market the new service as an integrated system >: >>(with through ticketing, etc.) >Want to hear something interesting? VIA Rail, the Canadian passenger >rail system, made a deal with Trentway-Wagar bus lines to take passengers. >The odd irony? Bus and rail compete AND VIA Rail used to service my >hometown, Peterborough, Ontario, which is also the head office of Trentway. >: > >: > I am sure that there are other airlines that do this, but TWA does this in >: > Italy.  They fly into Milan and Rome, but you can take a bus provided by them >: > to two or three other cities (Venice and Florence, I believe, but I’m not >: > positive). >: It’s becoming more common to see buses painted in the colours of assorted >: airlines providing connecting service to smaller cities. >: Tom, if you’re reading this, that creampuff blue&white  bus you were >: wondering about on the Mirabel-Ottawa run was a KLM bus (likely chartered >: from Voyageur or one of the others; I didn’t get a close look at it). I >: saw it here in Ottawa a while back. AFAIK it’s not somebody else taking >: over the Mirabel-Ottawa run from Voyageur. >Actually, I understand that Voyageur has been selling it’s routes left, >right and centre. It wouldn’t surprise me if they’re consolidating their >operations to somewhere else (ie., Quebec).

Very good idea. Integration of air travel with ground travel should be commonplace. High-speed trains which are becoming more widespread in Europe and other long-distance trains (VIA Rail, Amtrak, European railways like DB) and long-distance buses (Greyhound US and Australia, Eurolines in Europe, etc.) should be in the same booking system as airlines (e.g. Galileo) which facilitates integrated bookings. Airplanes are for long haul. All the short range air travel (< 800 km) should be restricted to the utmost necessary (e.g. business trips which *do* need short time). They use up more than half of the air space and clog it up and for the long distance flights. And have a relatively large environmental impact (less ‘real’ flight, more takeoffs and landings). In some cases in Europe, air travel *within* Europe is *cheaper* than traveling the same distance by ground transport while it consumes a lot more energy and has a lot more environmental impact. This can be accomplished by taxing air travel equally *per flight* (air-travel is tax-free in Europe and kerosene is tax-free *everywhere*) and spend it for investing in more ground transit infrastructure like high-speed railway links and more cooperation of airlines with railway companies and reservation systems. The emerging markets in S.Africa, China and other SE Asian countries can be major candidates for such infrastructure rather than only more automobiles and short-range airplanes. Klaas

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> >Actually, I understand that Voyageur has been selling it’s routes left, >right and centre. It wouldn’t surprise me if they’re consolidating their= >operations to somewhere else (ie., Quebec).

Voyageur has long been out of Qu=E9bec, They only operate the bus terminal = in Montr=E9al. I understand they recently sold off the Montreal-Toronto and Montreal Ottaw= a lines to an ontario bus company. The bus system in Qu=E9bec is a collection of small companies that operate = their own = buses on their own little lines. No "system" no "network". It used to be al= l Voyageur = and was sold off route by route. Compare this to the USA with Greyhound tha= t operates = nationwide, or Australia with both Greyhound-Pionner and McCafferty’s opera= ting = nationwide. > Very good idea. Integration of air travel with ground travel should be > commonplace. High-speed trains which are becoming more widespread in Euro= pe and > other long-distance trains (VIA Rail, Amtrak, European railways like DB) > and long-distance buses (Greyhound US and Australia, Eurolines in Europe,=  etc.) > should be in the same booking system as airlines (e.g. Galileo) which

What is left of Via Rail is bookable on SABRE. Although I have no idea if o= ne can book = a roomette or bedroom (and select it to be furthest from wheels) on the few=  token = overnight trains that remain. High speed trains require government involvement because to make a TRUE hig= h speed = train require major infrastructure (bridges, fences, land, expropriation et= c). Look at = Canada’s LRC: it was designed to go fast, but was never allowed to go fast = because of = track conditions, level crossings and freight trains. (and of course, all t= he bugs it = had). If you look at the controversy and protests over the building of a high spe= ed line = from the Chunnel entrance (Folkestone) to London, you will see that buildin= g rail = lines is not as easy. In Canada, we are not used to building rail lines, we=  are only = used to rail lines being torn down as fast as the railways are allowed to. Also, when you look at Via Rail’s insistence of not carrying large luggage,=  they are = the only transport system in Canada which caterogically refuses to carry it= ems such as = skis and bicycles except for a couple of token trains. = When ADM announced they were consolidating scheduled flights from Mirabel t= o Dorval, = they said that VIA Rail could provide services from Ottawa directly to Dorv= al airport. Dream on. VIA has NO baggage service from Ottawa to Montr=E9al, and buildin= g the rail = spur to the airport terminal would be a major undertaking. The single track=  between = Coteau-du-Lac and Ottawa just doesn’t permit the frequency and speed of ser= vice that = can compete with the bus. I used to be an ardent VIA supporter. I rode the = "Canadian" = 5 times before they stopped it. I used to ride their trains to Ottawa, King= ston and = Qu=E9bec when they had baggage compartments and then continued until the co= nductors were = told to enforce their silly "hand baggage only" policy. (Yes, a bike does f= it in an = LRC when disassembled and put in in garbage bags, but conductors stopped to= lerating = this during the last big round of fatal cutbacks). > They use up more than half of the air space and clog it up and for the lo= ng > distance flights. And have a relatively large environmental impact (less > ‘real’ flight, more takeoffs and landings).

Take the Montreal-Toronto flights. Many of them actually continue on to far= ther cities = on a second leg. So they do not necessarily "clog up" the air system since = they serve = both short and long distance travellers with the same flight. Furthermore, look at the environmental impact of an airport vs building 500= km of 4 = lane divided highway. Which one disturb farmland and animals the most ? whi= ch one = results in more dead animals on the side of the road ? Similarly, a true high speed track also disturbs the local rural road syste= m by = blocking all but the largest roads.  It also permanently splits farmland be= cause = farmers cannot cross the newly laid fenced tracks. (Unless the government s= pend the = required megabucks to bridge all existing roads). As a city dweller you don’t realise the impact "you" cause on the rural env= ironment = when you travel on surface between major cities. So, when looking at environmental impact, you have to look further than jus= t fuel = consumed. A plane at 31k feet disturbs a hell of a lot less folks than a tr= ain = traveling on the ground, especially diesel locomotives. While a high speed train would be good, it is something that we should not = expect in = Canada. Not enough traffic, not enough government money. The cheapest would=  be to = build high speed urban transport to the airports.

Response:

>Voyageur has long been out of Quebec, They only operate the bus terminal >in Montreal.

The bus terminal is operated by Voyageur Colonial these days–Voyageur is long gone. >I understand they recently sold off the Montreal-Toronto and Montreal Ottawa lines to an Ontario bus company.

In June, Voyageur Colonial was still operating these routes, and they have a WWW site that advertises these routes.  What source of information says that these routes were sold?

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>>Voyageur has long been out of Quebec, They only operate the bus terminal >in Montreal. >The bus terminal is operated by Voyageur Colonial these days–Voyageur is >long gone. >I understand they recently sold off the Montreal-Toronto and Montreal Ottawa lines to an Ontario bus company. >In June, Voyageur Colonial was still operating these routes, and they >have a WWW site that advertises these routes.  What source of information >says that these routes were sold?

In the August issue of Russell’s Official National Motor Coach Guide, VC table 2720 (Montreal-Toronto) has been replaced by an identical Trentway-Wagar table 2713.  Montreal-Ottawa is still VC table 2715.

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I forgot to tell than an option which is used more frequently in EUrope is buiding high-speed railways parallel with existing freeways. This means no extra cutting through landscape and cheaper bridges over valleys, other roads or rivers. It also keeps the noise ‘bundled’. ANd there are enough freeways. Klaas

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And all those freeways which cut the landscape ? I am talking about densely urbanized areas like NE-USA and Western Europe. Canada (or Australia) is a different story and for those cases you are probably right. Particularly W.Europe has a very dense network of freeways which Canada does not have. And the same with local air travel which, unlike Canada, *does* clog up the airspace there. There is a lot of protest against expansion of noisy and polluting airports and annual growth figures of 9 % will bring big trouble. I would rather have a high-speed rail which takes less space per traveling passenger than those damned freeways with an average occupation of 1.5 (30 %) person per car which is less than most airplanes, trains or buses. And freeways involve much government involvement. And, unlike the US and Canada, air travel, particularly airports are usually paid by the government. There is no GST on air tickets and fuel. Even some airlines (like Air France) are, despite EC rules, heavily subsidized. I want to tell here that there is a strong inequality in the *real* costs (incl. environmental) of transport in Europe.

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>>>I understand they recently sold off the Montreal-Toronto and Montreal Ottawa lines to an Ontario bus company. >In June, Voyageur Colonial was still operating these routes, and they >have a WWW site that advertises these routes.  What source of information >says that these routes were sold? >In the August issue of Russell’s Official National Motor Coach Guide, >VC table 2720 (Montreal-Toronto) has been replaced by an identical >Trentway-Wagar table 2713.  Montreal-Ottawa is still VC table 2715.

That’s quite interesting.  Greyhound Lines (U.S.) has a pool service with Trentway-Wagar on the New York to Toronto route.  They compete head-on with Trailways consisting of a pool service with Greyhound Lines of Canada.  With the recent acquisition of Gray Coach and some of Voyageur Colonial, it seemed as if Greyhound Lines of Canada had been making moves to position itself in the Toronto market, and eventually Montreal.  But given the stiff competition between Greyhound Lines of Canada and Trentway Wagar, the acquisition of some Voyageur Colonial routes by Trentway Wagar might preclude expansion by Greyhound Lines of Canada to Montreal.  The key, I suppose, will be what happens to the Ottawa to Montreal route–it could be a route into Montreal for Greyhound Lines of Canada.

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