Air Travel

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>   Why are first class seats so much more expensive that the rest of the >>plane? >>   If they take up 50% more space, then I can see a 50% price increase. >>But really. >>   A quick check shows about $730 from my home town in the US to Dublin >>Ireland for basic fare but the lowest first class I could find was about >>$2730 almost 4 times the price and that is better than I usually have >>found. > Twice as wide, twice the pitch would mean 4 times the floor space per seat. > Plus extra service, baggage allowance, luxury longe, etc. > Plus some people just do not care much about the fare as long as they are > comfortable. > True enough.  But what gets me is the lack of anything inbetween coach > and business/first class – at least on Continental and many other airlines. > I would love a few extra inches of space in my seat, in a real bona-fide > "coach plus" class, and I’d be willing to pay a little more ($100 or > $150) for a round trip ticket for that.  But I can’t justify the excess > in price of a business or first class ticket.  So I relegate myself to > plain old coach and seldom enjoy flying.

Evergreen used to offer something like that. Don’t know if they’re even around any more.

Response:

>I had the privilege of visiting Continental Airlines with a group from >another newsgroup several weeks ago.

Was that visit with the flyertalk group?

Response:

>they run it to >Jakarta twice a day to check for minor faults (seats, in seat entertainment >systems, etc) so they can fix them before the long flight.

That’s not the primary reason for the relatively short runs. Aircraft aged based on cycles (one takeoff, landing, pressurization), and hours. Aircraft used exclusively for long haul flights typically run up their hours, but not very many cycles. Shorter runs help balance the hours and cycles thus extending the time before an expensive maintenace period, as well as provide opportunities for the pilots of those aircraft to maintain their landing proficiency.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->they run it to >Jakarta twice a day to check for minor faults (seats, in seat >entertainment >systems, etc) so they can fix them before the long flight. > That’s not the primary reason for the relatively short runs. Aircraft aged > based > on cycles (one takeoff, landing, pressurization), and hours. Aircraft used > exclusively for long haul flights typically run up their hours, but not > very > many cycles. Shorter runs help balance the hours and cycles thus extending > the > time before an expensive maintenace period, as well as provide > opportunities for > the pilots of those aircraft to maintain their landing proficiency.

Well, that is what the senior steward told me. We had quite a long chat about the plane as I was so impressed by it and he obviously liked workng on it. He called the Jakarta flight a warm-up run and said they felt is was very important to sort out minor faults before the long haul – I wish more airlines would do that. If you reason is correct why don’t SQ ever seem to run 747s on short-haul (though they sometimes have done in the past on the very busy Jakarta route)? The landing and take-off practice reason makes sense to me, though I thought all the airbuses were so similar to fly that it may not be an issue with them. Anyway I have no idea personally, you can argue your point with the steward if you meet him

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>   Why are first class seats so much more expensive that the rest of the >> plane? >>   If they take up 50% more space, then I can see a 50% price increase. >> But really. >>   A quick check shows about $730 from my home town in the US to Dublin >> Ireland for basic fare but the lowest first class I could find was about >> $2730 almost 4 times the price and that is better than I usually have >> found. > Twice as wide, twice the pitch would mean 4 times the floor space per > seat. Plus extra service, baggage allowance, luxury longe, etc. > Plus some people just do not care much about the fare as long as they are > comfortable. > True enough.  But what gets me is the lack of anything inbetween coach and > business/first class – at least on Continental and many other airlines. > I would love a few extra inches of space in my seat, in a real bona-fide > "coach plus" class, and I’d be willing to pay a little more ($100 or $150) > for a round trip ticket for that.  But I can’t justify the excess in price > of a business or first class ticket.  So I relegate myself to plain old > coach and seldom enjoy flying.

Agree. I found just that last week on a Singapore Jakarta flight – the Singapore Airlines Airbus A340-500 (I think that is the number) which is the new long range plane that goes non-stop Singapore-USA (LA?); they run it to Jakarta twice a day to check for minor faults (seats, in seat entertainment systems, etc) so they can fix them before the long flight. The economy seats (I think they are sold as premium economy on the long haul) have maybe 15cm more leg room and a few cm more width – not a huge amount but a great difference in comfort for long haul. I have no idea what the extra cost is. Sadly they do not seem interested in putting them on my usual Singapore-London route.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I had the privilege of visiting Continental Airlines with a group from > another newsgroup several weeks ago.  We met with some of the senior people > at Continental, including the President, who said that DOMESTIC First Class > service costs them fully twice as much to offer as economy class, due to the > additional space, better food, etc.  And intercontinental business and/or > first class probably costs easily twice that to provide, because of the > additional room, luxurious food, lounge access, etc. because of things like > lie-flat beds, 55" pitch, etc.

That’s exactly right, based on the square-footage per passenger seat, in Coach, vs First, vs Business First on CO airlines. > I think that the intercontinental Business Class and First Class product is > totally different from economy, and is probably priced reasonably close to > its cost to the airlines.  And some people are going to be willing to pay > the additional for a superior intercontinental product.

I don’t think the International Business Class seats are priced close to its cost — else CO would be LOSING money to those passengers who use FFMs to upgrade OR get free Business First tickets with miles, which have the nominal cash-equivalent of $20 per 1000 FFM. > I don’t know about > other large countries where the airlines offer a Business Class or First > Class service domestically (Australia and Canada come to mind), but in the > U.S., Continental says only 1% of its passengers actually PAY for domestic > first class service.

That surprised even me.  I had thought that PERSONAL purchases of domestic First may be quite low, but those Firsts paid by clients or Business Corporations would be considerably higher than 1%. > The rest are upgrades.

I resemble that remark. For FIVE years, everyone of my CO domestic First flights were FREE (complimentary) upgrades from my coach tickets because of my Platinum Status, in that new FF structure since 1999. It wasn’t until last year when CO changed its upgrade rules that I missed my first complimentary upgrade, on the popular connection of LAX to EWR. CO is changing its pecking-order upgrade rule AGAIN, effective now I presume, as announced in the April issue of the InSight newsletter – for OnePass Elite members. To save its own neck (up to ears in debt and quarterly losses, as all major domestic airlines are experiencing), CO has been screwing its passengers in UPGRADE requirements as well as screwing some of its new-found partners.   For a roundtrip coach ticket from ATL/HKG, the old upgrade to Business First was 50K FFM, the nominal equivalent of $1,000 over the cheapest coach fare. When I did the same trip last November, it was $600 additional fare over my cheapie coach fare, PLUS the upgrade FFMs. Here was an concrete example of how CO screw BOTH its customer AND its partner, on an actual flight THIS MONTH. For an ATL to San Juan PR flight via EWR, on the "cruiseship dates" I needed, was 70K FFM for a free COACH, double the normal 35K, and higher than the normal First Class FFM-tickets.   And I had to stay overnight in San Juan on my return because the tickets on the flights suitable for cruise passengers were all sold out! I had ALMOST decided to pay that $1,400-equivalent coach plus a one-night stay in San Juan for about $200, since my unused CO FFMs had already exceed 7 figures, a helpful Platinum Elite agent found me a DIRECT flight from ATL, on Delta (CO’s screwed partner <G>) in FIRST CLASS, for less than my CO Coach ticket!  It cost me only 60K CO’s FFM to get the Delta First Class roundtrip ticket. There are other similar instances where I noticed CO agents were quite eager to put me on a PARTNER’s First Class flights (even for the same FFMs) when I was using my miles for free flights. It made sense.  CO is not getting any revenue from my use of the CO Frequent Flyer Miles.  So, it "pays" CO to put such passengers on it’s Partner-airlines’ seats to save the CO seats for "revenue passengers"!  I often wondered why CO, a much healthier airline bankrupcy-wise, took on Delta as partner when Delta was on the brink of bankrupcy — and still is.  NOW I see why — to unload CO’s liability in FFMs.   I still have over a million unsed CO FFMs, but I am not worried about not using them before CO files Chapter 11, if it goes that route in the near future, because the way CO is raising its FFM requirements for its own flights, I would have no trouble using a million FFMs for just a few international Business First flights. — Bob.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->   Why are first class seats so much more expensive that the rest of the >plane? >   If they take up 50% more space, then I can see a 50% price increase. >But really. >   A quick check shows about $730 from my home town in the US to Dublin >Ireland for basic fare but the lowest first class I could find was about >$2730 almost 4 times the price and that is better than I usually have >found. > Twice as wide, twice the pitch would mean 4 times the floor space per seat. > Plus extra service, baggage allowance, luxury longe, etc. > Plus some people just do not care much about the fare as long as they are > comfortable.

True enough.  But what gets me is the lack of anything inbetween coach and business/first class – at least on Continental and many other airlines. I would love a few extra inches of space in my seat, in a real bona-fide "coach plus" class, and I’d be willing to pay a little more ($100 or $150) for a round trip ticket for that.  But I can’t justify the excess in price of a business or first class ticket.  So I relegate myself to plain old coach and seldom enjoy flying.

Response:

Instead of thinking on why First class seats are VERY VERY VERY expensive (relatively), you maybe might want to think first on why the Economy class seats are so VERY VERY VERY cheap (relatively). Lets assume that the average person couldn’t afford the price of air travel and you couldn’t lowered the price down to the level that they could afford. What if that’s the truth? That the average person even today actually couldn’t afford air travel? How do you do transport all of these people who are only willing to pay so little for air travel? One way is that you made the First class passengers pay a large share of the cost for transportating the economy class passengers, they basically subsidize the Economy class passengers. This let people with less money to ride airplanes and gives the impression that air travel is affordable to the general public with medium budget. Of course, this make no sense, since on why the airline companies would want carry a lot of more people than needed, when they instead can just only cattered to people who will bring the maximum amount of profit to them? Unless of course, they are ordered to do so, being ordered to let a large part of the population be able to ride airplanes. Of course, budget airliner companies seems to take this order to the extreme. While we always being told that these companies managed to bring down the airfares down beyond the current level (which is already pretty much very cheap) is because on how they managed to ‘cut cost’. But what if that is not the case? And instead they are subsidised from a external party, with the intention to let a much larger part of the population being able to ride airplanes, and of course also to pressure the bigger airline companies, even down to the point of bankruptcy (which of course later these bigger companies and/or their assets will change ‘hands’). And of course, there’s the train companies. And also even personal transportation. As for the luxurious services and the luxurious facilities that First Class passengers get. Well… While the higher price of First class seat always said because due the higher price of the luxurious services and the luxurious facilities. When you think about it, the cost of transporting a First class passenger and an Economy class passenger might not be so different at all, even if one factored in the cost of the services and the facilities. The luxurious services and the luxurious facilities might be an attempt to disguise the higher price of a First class seat, more of a bonus for paying more rather the things that contribute to the drastic difference in price. As for the differences in classes. Well…. It probably done to let more people be able to travel with airplanes like I mentioned above. Another reason is that it might be also done with the intention to cause rifts between people, what happen if you put two different kind of people with two different kind of lifestyle together? Though of course, to let more people travel might caused some pretty major rifts by itself. The effects are congestion, doing an air travel when you shouldn’t do, and so on. It might be better to let those who usually travel in First class to be in their own airplanes, those who usually travel in Business class to be in their own airplanes, those who usually travel in Economy class to be in their own airplanes, and so on since they each have their own needs and capabilities. But if it’s done, then it’s possible that people wouldn’t be fighting each other so much, and there’s a group who wouldn’t want that to happen.

Response:

> Then you need to consider that "more space" is only a tiny part of the > difference. I fly Singapore Air regularly and get upgraded to First > Class probably 1/3 of the time. You don’t just get more space. They > come to you and hand you Givenchy pajamas to change into. While you’re > changing they lay out your seat into a full, flat, level bed.

They make you change yourself? You need to bank a few more miles, my friend. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos from 36 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu Latest photos: Jordan, Turkey, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, Israel

Response:

>>>>> Why are first class seats so much more expensive that the rest of the >>>> plane?

Because it is profitable for the airline(s).   If nobody ever bought those seats, they would have all coach.  Airlines are not dumb–if these seats did not bring a cash win for them, they would get rid of them, or adjust the size of the first class compartments for greatest profit. You or I may not fly upfront in First or Business, but some people can afford it, and do (like the Catholic archbishop I just read about on another discussion site)–the airlines can then use the unsold space upfront to provide perks to attract frequent fliers who will keep general revenue for the airline high.

Response:

>  it’s set like that because that’s what > people are prepared to pay to get out of cattle class!

It might be to ensure that the cattle don’t get into first class, too. And after another long flight, I can see the thinking in that. Some of them behave disgustingly. I wonder if they let crying babies into first class? ant

Response:

—snip— > I wonder if they let crying babies into first class? >ant

They will let anyone into F who is willing to pay for it.  Note that the payment can be currency, miles, upgrade certs, or loyalty.  I frequently fly with my son so he can visit the grandparents while my wife and I take a vacation alone.  His first flight was in F when he was 8 months old.  At 3.5 years old, he has spent more time in F than in Y.  Before the "I hate kids on planes" troop chimes in, Let me add that he is a very good flyer.  He has only disturbed other passengers twice in over a dozen flights.  Once was during takeoff when he announced "wheeeeeeeeee" as we started rolling down the runway.  The other was a 30 second crying episode after waking up while we were deplaning.  One time, while deplainng, I had a snooty guy say to me that F passengers get to deplane first.  To which I replied, OK then we are deplaning at the right time.  He couldn’t believe that a 2-yr old was quiet in F for 2.5 hours in a plane.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > —snip— > I wonder if they let crying babies into first class? > ant > They will let anyone into F who is willing to pay for it.  Note that > the payment can be currency, miles, upgrade certs, or loyalty.  I > frequently fly with my son so he can visit the grandparents while my > wife and I take a vacation alone.  His first flight was in F when he > was 8 months old.  At 3.5 years old, he has spent more time in F than > in Y.  Before the "I hate kids on planes" troop chimes in, Let me add > that he is a very good flyer.  He has only disturbed other passengers > twice in over a dozen flights.  Once was during takeoff when he > announced "wheeeeeeeeee" as we started rolling down the runway.  The > other was a 30 second crying episode after waking up while we were > deplaning.  One time, while deplainng, I had a snooty guy say to me > that F passengers get to deplane first.  To which I replied, OK then > we are deplaning at the right time.  He couldn’t believe that a 2-yr > old was quiet in F for 2.5 hours in a plane.

My idea of a long flight is 10 hours plus. The last one was 14 hours, and there was 2 chainsaws going off for long periods through out the flight. Their considerate parents would often pick them up and take them for a walk around the cabin when they erupted, ensuring that even passengers seated a long way from them got their fair dose of screeching. ant

Response:

>    Why are first class seats so much more expensive that the rest of the > plane? >    If they take up 50% more space, then I can see a 50% price increase. > But really. >    A quick check shows about $730 from my home town in the US to Dublin > Ireland for basic fare but the lowest first class I could find was about > $2730 almost 4 times the price and that is better than I usually have > found.

Twice as wide, twice the pitch would mean 4 times the floor space per seat. Plus extra service, baggage allowance, luxury longe, etc. Plus some people just do not care much about the fare as long as they are comfortable.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->    Why are first class seats so much more expensive that the rest of the > plane? >    If they take up 50% more space, then I can see a 50% price increase. > But really. >    A quick check shows about $730 from my home town in the US to Dublin > Ireland for basic fare but the lowest first class I could find was about > $2730 almost 4 times the price and that is better than I usually have > found. > Twice as wide, twice the pitch would mean 4 times the floor space per > seat. Plus extra service, baggage allowance, luxury longe, etc. > Plus some people just do not care much about the fare as long as they are > comfortable.

I had the privilege of visiting Continental Airlines with a group from another newsgroup several weeks ago.  We met with some of the senior people at Continental, including the President, who said that DOMESTIC First Class service costs them fully twice as much to offer as economy class, due to the additional space, better food, etc.  And intercontinental business and/or first class probably costs easily twice that to provide, because of the additional room, luxurious food, lounge access, etc. because of things like lie-flat beds, 55" pitch, etc. I think that the intercontinental Business Class and First Class product is totally different from economy, and is probably priced reasonably close to its cost to the airlines.  And some people are going to be willing to pay the additional for a superior intercontinental product.  I don’t know about other large countries where the airlines offer a Business Class or First Class service domestically (Australia and Canada come to mind), but in the U.S., Continental says only 1% of its passengers actually PAY for domestic first class service.  The rest are upgrades. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

>    Why are first class seats so much more expensive that the rest of the >plane? >    If they take up 50% more space, then I can see a 50% price increase. >But really. >    A quick check shows about $730 from my home town in the US to Dublin >Ireland for basic fare but the lowest first class I could find was about >$2730 almost 4 times the price and that is better than I usually have found.

Typical coach has a 31 to 33 inch seat pitch, and first is 60 to 94 inches.  On a typical 777, coach is 9 across, and First is 4 across (6 or 7 for Business Class).  So if you Have a First Class seat with 94" pitch and 4 across, your seat is actually taking up 6 times more space than the coach seat.  If you ahve a F (or Business) seat with a 60" pitch and 7 across, you are taking up slightly less than 3 times the space.  So 3×730=2190.  Plus you get lounge access, better meal, and complimentary alcoholic beverages.  Therefore, on a pure space analysis, 2730 doesn’t seem that out of line.  However, airlines do not price premium cabin seats based on how much more space they take up over coach seats.  They price them for what they think the market will pay.  Sometimes this is good for the consumer, and sometimes it is bad.  For example, an F seat on Air france JFK-CDG this summer will cost around $10k (bad for consumer).  However, a pretty good Business seat on a Continental EWR-CDG can be found for $1650 (good for consumer).  Coach on either is in the $800-$1000 range.

Response:

>    Why are first class seats so much more expensive that the rest of the > plane? >    If they take up 50% more space, then I can see a 50% price increase. > But really. >    A quick check shows about $730 from my home town in the US to Dublin > Ireland for basic fare but the lowest first class I could find was about > $2730 almost 4 times the price and that is better than I usually have > found.

It’s not just the space for the seats, most of the price is for the *service*, i.e. more personal attention from the FA’s. It is that which costs the extra cash. But also in airlines the price has little connection to the actual cost of running the aircraft, it’s set like that because that’s what people are prepared to pay to get out of cattle class!

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    Why are first class seats so much more expensive that the rest of the plane?     If they take up 50% more space, then I can see a 50% price increase. But really.     A quick check shows about $730 from my home town in the US to Dublin Ireland for basic fare but the lowest first class I could find was about $2730 almost 4 times the price and that is better than I usually have found. — Joseph Meehan Dia’s Muire duit

Response:

> Why are first class seats so much more expensive that the rest of the > plane? >     If they take up 50% more space, then I can see a 50% price increase. > But really. >     A quick check shows about $730 from my home town in the US to Dublin > Ireland for basic fare but the lowest first class I could find was about > $2730 almost 4 times the price and that is better than I usually have

found. Airlines charge much more for First Class in part because they can. They have to price compete to sell Coach seats but not First Class. Next point is that hardly anyone ever pays for First Class. It’s usually an upgrade, particularly on domestic US or intra-Europe flights. Then you need to consider that "more space" is only a tiny part of the difference. I fly Singapore Air regularly and get upgraded to First Class probably 1/3 of the time. You don’t just get more space. They come to you and hand you Givenchy pajamas to change into. While you’re changing they lay out your seat into a full, flat, level bed. They add a mattress pad, comforter, full size pillow, etc. Better food, bigger TV, first off the plane, assitance in airports if needed, separate Lots of differences.

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