Air Travel

Question:

>1. Not everyone agrees with the poster that US airlines are so terrible. >In the last five years, I’ve flown BA, LH, and US a number of times on >transatlantic flights and I really see no difference in the service >in coach. (I think they’re all fine.)

I have flown a lot of business class on Asian,  European and American carriers and I would have to say I rank ‘em this way: Pacific: United Cathay Pacific Northwest Thai Malaysian JAL Korean Qantas Europe: British United Swissair Lufthansa KLM I haven’t done much flying on carriers not listed.  I find that non US carriers can be more  "predictable" and have a more consistent standard, but that US carriers can really rise above that with the right F/A crew.  Foodwise and entertainment wise they are pretty much comparable.  US carrier F/As can be so much more personable that it really makes the difference.  Of course, when they are ho-hum, the service will fall below the European and Asian levels.

Response:

<snip> > 2. There are many more international flights from my home airport (PHL) > on US carriers than on foreign carriers. >Market control is a higher priority than customer satisfaction, according to the >airlines’ >philosophy of operation.

You (and the airlines) see it as ‘market control’ — I see it as a 12 minute ride to and from the airport. > 3. FF miles. >gimmick!

A gimmick that has gotten me to Turkey, India, southern Africa, and Chile. Works for me. > 4. For some work-related trips paid for by the US govt, one is > required to fly a US carrier. >Yeap. One never know who’s really in ‘control’ of the airlines industry or the >government….

It’s not really so outrageous for US taxpayer dollars to be spent on US businesses. When my ticket was paid for by German taxpayer dollars, I had to fly on LH… Do you think that’s strange or reprehensible? >Regardless of the reasons for being unpleasant towards passengers, I rather have >no >FA’s onboard (this may bring the ticket cost down significantly) than having >bunch of u >unpleasant FA’s that can only ruin the enjoyment of my trips.

I’m so sorry for you that the enjoyment of your trips is dependent on the mood and personality of the FAs assigned to your section of the plane. Since I don’t consider them geisha girls (or guys) who are there to please me and entertain me, they cannot ruin my trips. But I do want them onboard in case there’s an emergency and I don’t remember which way to pull that little oxygen bag — now THAT could really ruin my trip!

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>Re formal wear at sports events >Periodically AMC runs the movie  version of The FBI Story which judging >from the closing scene (the hero driving a 1958 Ford four door hardtop >to the Iwo Jima memorial) was probably made in 58 or 59.  There is  a >subplot in that movie depicting the tracking down and capture of a spy >during, again judging from the cars depicrted, the late 40’s or early >50’s.  One of the scenes is a football game in Yankee Stadium at which >the spectators are shown dressed as if they had just come from church >and whnever "their" team performs a great play they politely stand and >applaud and then just as politely return to their seats.  Did people >really behave that way at sporting events in those days?

I didn’t go to sports events then any more than I do now (0-0) but anything connected with school — kindergarten thru the PhD/MD/… — had severe dress restrictions. In high school we would get picked up for detention if we (girls) were caught walking on the school block in slacks — even if we’d been dismissed for the day but others were still in class. And we (girls and boys) could get picked up for detention if seen in jeans. So I cannot imagine going to a football game in anything but ‘appropriate attire’ at that time. And high school sports pretty much set the standard for such things, AFAIK. When I was in college, girls were allowed to wear slacks if it were below 20F or if there were more than 2" of snow on the ground. Since it was a commuter school and the temps could go up or the snow could melt during the day, we never dared wear slacks. Boys could never wear jeans. And this was Brooklyn College, not some fancy New England school! Things have changed. But, re old movies, one of my favorite demos of how the culture has changed is in the movie _Indiscreet_, late ’50s. Ingrid Bergman and Cary Grant go to a restaurant and IB tells the waiter that they must absolutely leave by a certain time. Well, as the time approaches, IB and CG are deeply engrossed in conversation and the waiter stands by silently, hoping to make eye contact — but they never look at him. After an interminable while, he goes to the maitre d’ to explain the ‘problem’, and the maitre d’ goes to the table and clears his throat, finally getting their attention. And this was to tell them something they wanted to hear!!! Compare with today’s ‘waitpersons’ who have no compunction about totally interrupting your conversation to say, ‘Is everything ok?’ I’m always tempted to answer, ‘It was, until you interrupted us.’ Sorry to be OT — but it ain’t only air travel that’s changed.

Response:

> Several reasons, e.g.: > 1. Not everyone agrees with the poster that US airlines are so terrible. > In the last five years, I’ve flown BA, LH, and US a number of times on > transatlantic flights and I really see no difference in the service > in coach. (I think they’re all fine.)

You are right… not everyone agrees with the original poster, BUT lots of people do. I am among those who see the degrading in service quality of American FA’s. Though there are still a few that take their job seriously and do take pride in providing quality service through their pleasant manners and professional handling of passengers’ needs. Unfortunately, they are the few lasting ones. I talked to lot of FA’s in the recent months and gained some understanding of where they’re coming from. In many cases, the ‘bad attitudes’ are ‘transferred’ from the poor handling of management toward the FA’s and they simply pass it on to passengers. I cannot blame the FA’s alone. It’s the greedy management that’s responsible for many roots of passengers’ discomfort. > 2. There are many more international flights from my home airport (PHL) > on US carriers than on foreign carriers.

Market control is a higher priority than customer satisfaction, according to the airlines’ philosophy of operation. > 3. FF miles.

gimmick! > 4. For some work-related trips paid for by the US govt, one is > required to fly a US carrier.

Yeap. One never know who’s really in ‘control’ of the airlines industry or the government…. Regardless of the reasons for being unpleasant towards passengers, I rather have no FA’s onboard (this may bring the ticket cost down significantly) than having bunch of u unpleasant FA’s that can only ruin the enjoyment of my trips.

Response:

Re formal wear at sports events Periodically AMC runs the movie  version of The FBI Story which judging from the closing scene (the hero driving a 1958 Ford four door hardtop to the Iwo Jima memorial) was probably made in 58 or 59.  There is  a subplot in that movie depicting the tracking down and capture of a spy during, again judging from the cars depicrted, the late 40’s or early 50’s.  One of the scenes is a football game in Yankee Stadium at which the spectators are shown dressed as if they had just come from church and whnever "their" team performs a great play they politely stand and applaud and then just as politely return to their seats.  Did people really behave that way at sporting events in those days? George who looks forward to the Central Park parade of 40s-50s cars in that movie And, as Alex the Great once said "Let us walk off the map" in pursuit of our dreams

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<snip> >   Reading all of the above one would expect every traveller to fly >non-US airlines whenever possible. (like I do) >So why do people still fly US airlines internationally when most of the >time there are alternatives that are as cheap as the US airlines and >provide much better service? Even frequent flyer miles can be had with >airlines like LH, SK, TG (for UA) or KL (for NW).

Several reasons, e.g.: 1. Not everyone agrees with the poster that US airlines are so terrible. In the last five years, I’ve flown BA, LH, and US a number of times on transatlantic flights and I really see no difference in the service in coach. (I think they’re all fine.) 2. There are many more international flights from my home airport (PHL) on US carriers than on foreign carriers. (Maybe infinitely more since Swissair left and if LH hasn’t arrived yet.) And I for one much prefer a 12-minute taxi ride to the airport followed by a nonstop flight to Europe to a 1.5 hour drive to EWR or a 2.5 hour drive to JFK… 3. FF miles. 4. For some work-related trips paid for by the US govt, one is required to fly a US carrier.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > The first time I was on a commercial aircraft was in the 50’s and the > last time > was last week. Over the years can’t help but to notice a huge change > in customer > service attitudes carried out by FA and the ground crew (customer > service > counter). Then it was professional and courteous. Now it is quite the > opposite. > My observation of the change in customer service quality is mostly on > American > carriers such as UA, American, Northwest, etc. I have flown BA > (British Airways) > and Singapore Airlines as well and I must say they are far better than > any on > mentioned American airlines. What’s going wrong? Is it the training? > MTV > generation? Bart Simpson generation? lack of home education? lack of > manner > training? cultural revolution? or just simply lack of proper training? > Today air travel is getting more resembling of Greyhound bus > traveling.  I often > avoid any contact with flight attendant when I aboard an American > carrier – > especially domestic segments. In my international segments, I noticed > a great > difference between the attitudes of foreign flight attendants working > for an > American carrier and their American co-workers. The foreign flight > attendants > statistically are far more pleasant and professional while the > American FA’s > seemed to be naturally rude and lack of enthusiasm. > What’s gone wrong?

   Reading all of the above one would expect every traveller to fly non-US airlines whenever possible. (like I do) So why do people still fly US airlines internationally when most of the time there are alternatives that are as cheap as the US airlines and provide much better service? Even frequent flyer miles can be had with airlines like LH, SK, TG (for UA) or KL (for NW). Sjoerd

Response:

>>I have been a FA since 1970, when I was told "The good old days are gone, >you should have been flying a couple a years ago".   Plus ca change… >Perhaps today’s less-than-enthusiastic FA’s are >a result of an increase in boorish pax they en- >counter.  Brings up the question of which came >first…unpleasant FA’s and counter personnel, or >impolite, "I’m a special person" pax.  With the >"Greyhound" crowd I see as fellow pax these >days I don’t envy the FA’s.

Don’t forget the overcrowding caused by inadequate seat pitch and high load factors. And yet not all FAs are overtly less-than-enthusiastic. CX’s and SQ’s sure aren’t ; far from it. Ed R.

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>You see it in other areas of life so why should air travel be spared? Go to >any B’way show today and you’ll see patrons in tank tops and shorts during the >warm weather; go to a ball game (pro or college) and you’ll see the same >attire (I remember going to college football games when males wore jackets and >ties and women wore dresses — ever see those old films of baseball games in >the 50s and early 60s? Notice the fans’ "formal" attire? ). Same thing happens >in restaurants. IOW, people’s lifestyle, including attritude and manners is >considerably less rule-bound today than back then.

Indeed. It used to be a given that one did not talk in movie theatres. Now there are signs reminding patrons to do so, and they’re usually ignored. Ed R.

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>What’s gone wrong?

I’m not sure anything has "gone wrong", but things have changed. Air travel in the US has become a routine event. It’s a very common form of travel now, and not at all like I remember when I was younger when it was a Really Big Deal just to get a chance to go to the airport. There are people who fly every day of the week, and there are many many flight attendants who fly a half-dozen or more legs every day.  With that type of repetition, I’m sure a lot of things become a blur, and I suspect the whole experience becomes relatively tedious for a lot of people (both flight attendants and passengers).  They’ve seen it all before. Also, with the majority of customers indicating that they will choose a lower fare over better service, I think most domestic US airlines have changed their primary focus from providing a service-oriented experience to providing a reliable and safe means of transportation. I still think flying is a cool experience myself <grin>, but I don’t fly very much.  But I know a few folks who don’t even think twice about it. As far as they’re concerned it might as well be a bus… —                      Written online using slrn 0.9.5.4!                    The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.

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> >I have been a FA since 1970, when I was told "The good old days are gone, >you should have been flying a couple a years ago".   Plus ca change… > Perhaps today’s less-than-enthusiastic FA’s are > a result of an increase in boorish pax they en- > counter.  Brings up the question of which came > first…unpleasant FA’s and counter personnel, or > impolite, "I’m a special person" pax.  With the > "Greyhound" crowd I see as fellow pax these > days I don’t envy the FA’s. > Paul

You see it in other areas of life so why should air travel be spared? Go to any B’way show today and you’ll see patrons in tank tops and shorts during the warm weather; go to a ball game (pro or college) and you’ll see the same attire (I remember going to college football games when males wore jackets and ties and women wore dresses — ever see those old films of baseball games in the 50s and early 60s? Notice the fans’ "formal" attire? ). Same thing happens in restaurants. IOW, people’s lifestyle, including attritude and manners is considerably less rule-bound today than back then. — For e-mail reply, please remove the X from Xprosete ThanXs!

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> You’re right, air travel is not what it used to be. It is a whole lot > cheaper. Take a typical fare you paid in the fifties, scale it using the > Consumer Price Index, and compare it to a typical fare on the same route > today. Why should you expect to pay Greyhound fare and get luxury liner > service?

The CPI began to keep tabs on inflation in 1967, as I recall. The last time I remember seeing a comparison chart, the CPI was up something like 227% for the mid-1990’s (vs. 1967). IOW, what one could buy for one dollar in 1967 required appx $2.27 in the mid-1990s. However, airline fares have always had its bargains and, so, it’s hard to compare a given fare 30+ years ago with today’s market. The *only* comparison I can make is a personal one: The $90-$100 rt MIA-JFK weekend fare that existed in 1970 is now,almost 30 years later, in the low $200 range. That’s in keeping with the 227% increase in the CPI. Of course, a cleaner comparison would be that of an individual’s purchasing power in 1970 (or 1960) vs. today, or what % of your hourly/weekly/monthly earnings was required for a given fare then vs. now. — For e-mail reply, please remove the X from Xprosete ThanXs!

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Back in the 50’s air travel was, adjusted for inflation, a LOT more expensive than it is now. Also back in the 50’s there were quite a few people who were being oppressed and hindered financially and socially. Nostalgia forgets the bad parts -Erik

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>> The first time I was on a commercial aircraft was in the 50’s and the > last time was last week. Over the years can’t help but to notice a huge > change in customer service attitudes carried out by FA and the ground > crew (customer service counter). Then it was professional and > courteous. Now it is quite the opposite<snip>What’s going wrong? Is it the training? > MTV generation? Bart Simpson generation? lack of home education? lack > of manner training? cultural revolution? or just simply lack of proper > training? > Today air travel is getting more resembling of Greyhound bus > traveling<snip>

I dont think we’re in Mayberry anymore Aunt Bea. Unfortunately many things that were special back in the 50’s are standard now and just another part of todays hectic world. Back in the 50s traveling used to be an adventure (it is still today, but for different reasons). Everyone dressed nice and it was something special. Today its flip flops and tank tops (even in FC!, the shame) and flying is just another means of mass transportation. You get to deal with all of the above (ill manners, me generation, lack of any? education), and along with the change in the traveling publics attitudes (which isnt 50ish either), unfortunately comes change with some of the employees attitudes. I’m not saying that it should be that way, but I can vouch that thats part of the problem along with the time constraints involved and the shear number of people traveling now. Working for an airline in the 50’s was a glamourous job. Today its *just* a job for many people. A bus with wings.

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>I have been a FA since 1970, when I was told "The good old days are gone, >you should have been flying a couple a years ago".   Plus ca change…

Perhaps today’s less-than-enthusiastic FA’s are a result of an increase in boorish pax they en- counter.  Brings up the question of which came first…unpleasant FA’s and counter personnel, or impolite, "I’m a special person" pax.  With the "Greyhound" crowd I see as fellow pax these days I don’t envy the FA’s. Paul

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Nail on Head, Andrew. Nail on Head.

  The fact is that most of the US carriers have no – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->problem filling their seats and making good profits.  This means they >do fulfill the needs of their customers.  One day, if all the air >travellers choose non-US carriers because of superior service, the >market will force the US carriers to improve their inflight service. >At this time, I don’t think any major US carriers are eager to become >the carrier with the best inflight service, because the investment to >improve their inflight service probably doesn’t have an excellent >return.  After all, they are just responsible to take you from point A >to point B safely and punctually.

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> That’s not totally accurate.  If you compare apples to apples (refundable > walk up fares), fares have increased exponentially. > Example:  1972 Dallas-New York –  $ 99  in coach >                    1999 Dallas-New York – $700 in coach > I think that this is considerably more than the inflation over that time > period.

What happens though when you compare excursion with excursion fares? Rich

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> You’re right, air travel is not what it used to be. It is a whole lot > cheaper. Take a typical fare you paid in the fifties, scale it using the > Consumer Price Index, and compare it to a typical fare on the same route > today. Why should you expect to pay Greyhound fare and get luxury liner > service?

People keep claiming this but I don’t believe it’s true. Surely someone out there has done a study of long-term airline rates.  Anyone have a citation?

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Could this be a matter of training—are the FA flight crews working today better or worse trained versus say an FA hired in the 1950’s or 1960’s? Maryanne.

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That’s not totally accurate.  If you compare apples to apples (refundable walk up fares), fares have increased exponentially. Example:  1972 Dallas-New York –  $ 99  in coach                    1999 Dallas-New York – $700 in coach I think that this is considerably more than the inflation over that time period. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >You’re right, air travel is not what it used to be. It is a whole lot >cheaper. Take a typical fare you paid in the fifties, scale it using the >Consumer Price Index, and compare it to a typical fare on the same route >today. Why should you expect to pay Greyhound fare and get luxury liner >service?

Response:

I have been a FA since 1970, when I was told "The good old days are gone, you should have been flying a couple a years ago".   Plus ca change… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >The first time I was on a commercial aircraft was in the 50’s and the last time >was last week. Over the years can’t help but to notice a huge change in customer >service attitudes carried out by FA and the ground crew (customer service >counter).

Response:

You’re right, air travel is not what it used to be. It is a whole lot cheaper. Take a typical fare you paid in the fifties, scale it using the Consumer Price Index, and compare it to a typical fare on the same route today. Why should you expect to pay Greyhound fare and get luxury liner service?

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You are so correct but I agree with the first poster who misses the old days.  Worked many yards and fences to pay for a round trip in 1953 on Mid-Continent Airlines Convair 240.  WOW!   Nothing could top the Pan Am Stratowhatevers.  Nothing for sheer joy of travel (and noise)! Of course jets are better and travel is still super, but I think I have to agree it was fun in the old days too.  BTW, my favorite livery was the old AA orange lightning bolt.  That made a statement.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You’re right, air travel is not what it used to be. It is a whole lot >cheaper. Take a typical fare you paid in the fifties, scale it using the >Consumer Price Index, and compare it to a typical fare on the same route >today. Why should you expect to pay Greyhound fare and get luxury liner >service?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The first time I was on a commercial aircraft was in the 50’s and the > last time was last week. Over the years can’t help but to notice a huge > change in customer service attitudes carried out by FA and the ground > crew (customer service counter). Then it was professional and > courteous. Now it is quite the opposite.  My observation of the change > in customer service quality is mostly on American carriers such as UA, > American, Northwest, etc. I have flown BA (British Airways) and > Singapore Airlines as well and I must say they are far better than any > on mentioned American airlines. What’s going wrong? Is it the training? > MTV generation? Bart Simpson generation? lack of home education? lack > of manner training? cultural revolution? or just simply lack of proper > training? > Today air travel is getting more resembling of Greyhound bus > traveling.  I often avoid any contact with flight attendant when I > aboard an American carrier – especially domestic segments. In my > international segments, I noticed a great difference between the > attitudes of foreign flight attendants working for an American carrier > and their American co-workers. The foreign flight attendants > statistically are far more pleasant and professional while the American > FA’s seemed to be naturally rude and lack of enthusiasm. > What’s gone wrong?

In terms of service, many will agree with you that the US carriers are far behind their interantional competitors.  However, the product an airline offers is more than just inflight service.  Reliability, convenience, fares, frequent flier program, etc., are also important factors which affect a customer’s decision of which airline he or she want to choose.  The fact is that most of the US carriers have no problem filling their seats and making good profits.  This means they do fulfill the needs of their customers.  One day, if all the air travellers choose non-US carriers because of superior service, the market will force the US carriers to improve their inflight service. At this time, I don’t think any major US carriers are eager to become the carrier with the best inflight service, because the investment to improve their inflight service probably doesn’t have an excellent return.  After all, they are just responsible to take you from point A to point B safely and punctually.

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The first time I was on a commercial aircraft was in the 50’s and the last time was last week. Over the years can’t help but to notice a huge change in customer service attitudes carried out by FA and the ground crew (customer service counter). Then it was professional and courteous. Now it is quite the opposite. My observation of the change in customer service quality is mostly on American carriers such as UA, American, Northwest, etc. I have flown BA (British Airways) and Singapore Airlines as well and I must say they are far better than any on mentioned American airlines. What’s going wrong? Is it the training? MTV generation? Bart Simpson generation? lack of home education? lack of manner training? cultural revolution? or just simply lack of proper training? Today air travel is getting more resembling of Greyhound bus traveling.  I often avoid any contact with flight attendant when I aboard an American carrier – especially domestic segments. In my international segments, I noticed a great difference between the attitudes of foreign flight attendants working for an American carrier and their American co-workers. The foreign flight attendants statistically are far more pleasant and professional while the American FA’s seemed to be naturally rude and lack of enthusiasm. What’s gone wrong?

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