Air Travel

Question:

I’ve been watching this thred for a while and I still can’t find any real benefit to consumers in ticketless travel. First, under the current scheme, if I have an American ticket from X to Y, I’m free to use that ticket on any airline especially if it is a full fare ticket.  E.G.  The American flight is delayed, so I go over to United and get a seat there.  Under a ticketless scheme, the original airline can refuse to endorse the ticket even if the new airline is will to accept it. Secondly, people very often have their company buy one ticket and then make a second reservation for a different (earlier) return to keep their options open.  In a ticketless scheme, you would probably have to pay for the second reservation and then get the first refunded.  Of course, when I do this I always cancel the reservation I’m not going to use when it gets closer. Finally, in a ticketless scheme, the airline becomes the arbitier of whether that ticket was used or not when applying for a refund.  In the current scheme, I have a ticket to take to the airline for a refund when a trip gets cancelled. Yes, I would no longer have to worry about losing tickets, but that is not a big risk.  I suspect (hope) that full-fare business flyers will not be happy with a ticketless system.

Response:

: First, under the current scheme, if I have an American ticket from X to Y, : I’m free to use that ticket on any airline especially if it is a full fare : ticket.  E.G.  The American flight is delayed, so I go over to United : and get a seat there.  Under a ticketless scheme, the original airline : can refuse to endorse the ticket even if the new airline is will to accept : it. We’re working to make it possible to still be able to buy the ticket from UA and use it on AA or DL or anyone else who accepts UA’s tickets… Refusing to endorse a ticket is highly unlikely, because it works both ways — if we don’t allow XX to take our tickets, they won’t allow us to take their tickets. No carrier wants that to happen. : Secondly, people very often have their company buy one ticket and then : make a second reservation for a different (earlier) return to keep their : options open.  In a ticketless scheme, you would probably have to pay : for the second reservation and then get the first refunded.  Of course, : when I do this I always cancel the reservation I’m not going to use when : it gets closer. Maybe you do, but approximately 10 to 15% of the seats booked are "spoiled" because few others bother to cancel the double bookings. Maybe paying twice and having to tie up your credit cards will stop you from booking that second flight? I doubt it… : Finally, in a ticketless scheme, the airline becomes the arbitier of whether : that ticket was used or not when applying for a refund.  In the current : scheme, I have a ticket to take to the airline for a refund when a trip : gets cancelled. Yeah, perhaps this is true, but you can handle your refund over the phone or via EAAsy SABRE instead of waiting in line. Personally, I’d rather do it over the phone rather than have to wait in line…. : Yes, I would no longer have to worry about losing tickets, but that is not : a big risk.  I suspect (hope) that full-fare business flyers will not be : happy with a ticketless system. I can’t speak for all frequent flyers, but most of the people I know who travel for a living can’t wait to see it come out with all airlines… There will always be a few who don’t like the changes, but so far, the reaction has been quite positive. As part of the group working on interline standards for electronic ticketing, each of the issues you’ve raised is valid, and is being addressed by all of the carriers. Carriers participating in the group are AA, UA, DL, HP, NW, CO, WN, TZ, AS, AC, and KP. That accounts for all of the major and national carriers, so I think that it’s inevitable…. E — |  American Airlines, Inc  | Not Represent American  | Fort Worth, TX       | |  Ticketing/Terminal Svcs | Airlines or AMR Corp."  | Oskee-Wow-Wow        |

Response:

Bob, I did not get your response… Also for the benefit of the many, I’ll respond here as you did, although I’m staying away from the agency-airline argument. I’m afraid that after seeing some recent press reports that anything said may be misconstrued, to the point of antitrust allegations already being tossed about regarding electronic ticketing. On with the thread…..

: > : >: Sorry, this is belied by the actions of many.  Valujet and others have : >: gone to no-ticket service, wholesaler markups over their costs are nothing : >: like 9% (they can be as low as $25 on a $1000 ticket), talk to airline : >: people off the record, and they’d love to do away with the current system. : > : >I also take RNA’s side on this one. Southwest (perhaps somewhat : >reluctantly???) left travel agent commissions intact when they made their : >ticketless announcement. While it may seem like ticketless won’t happen : >industry wide, think twice. There’s big money in NOT issuing tickets in : >terms of just the price of the paper they’re issued on! If the only thing : >that Suzie the travel agent can provide me tomorrow is an invoice, why : >should I go there in the first place if I don’t need a ticket?….. : back to the consumer point of view…  If you buy a thousand dollar : item do you want more than an invoice?  We already hear a lot of horror : stories of people not getting their tickets.  That seems to be one : psychological barrier.   The true beauty (or downfall) is that the ticket is embedded into your reservation, and it theoretically can’t be lost. Kind of like when your bank took away your passbook or your company got direct deposit. Not everyone is happy with those changes, yet they seem to work with little consumer rejection. : I still think people will still want their shopping done for them in : finding the cheapest fare.  We often beat our clients price that : book their tickets through EAASY SABRE.  We answer questions that the : airline won’t.  Ask American Airlines about lodging or a car and see : what response you will get.   Actually, I’ve been asked everytime I make a reservation if I need a car or a hotel, even when the reservations rep knows I’m only booking as an employee. It’s part of the "required" conversation, and we place a bit of importance on that, as we also get a (much smaller) commission for all the cars and hotels that we book… If you ask for the competitive fare information, it will be provided. : Ticketless travel will alter the market.  I will wait and see how much : it alters the market.  When American Airlines, or whatever, begins : quoting the competition’s fares, agencies will be largely done. Electronic ticketing will not alter the air travel market any more than banning smoking or eliminating meals did. People still fly — they just eat and smoke beforehand… : Below is the larger problem concerning agencies.  Printing the ticket : is not hard for airlines.  It is the time it takes to service so many : people.  It takes a lot of people.  EAASY SABRE does not require much : effort on the Airline’s part.  The person does the work. No comment. : >: Travel agencies are middlemen, and middlemen are being squeezed out of : >: the US economy.  Travel agents are starting to feel the heat, and will : >: continue to do so. Again, no comment. But go ask a neighborhood computer store what they think of CompUSA or Gateway 2000…. : Most agencies seem to be hostile to Southwest over their not being full : participants on the computer systems.  Here in Sacramento volume at our : airport has skyrocketed since Southwest entered the market.  More people : are traveling and traveling more often.  They fly on more than Southwest. : Southwest is not a problem. Most reservations systems are hostile towards Southwest too, because they didn’t want to play by the same rules that the other carriers did. Except for SABRE, all the other systems carried Southwest for free. Southwest pays to be listed in SABRE, and is still carried in SABRE today. (Even AA has to pay booking fees and listing fees to SABRE — they’re a separate company) : — :   Brown Bag Travel                         (916) 987-8390 :            DISCLAIMER: These opinions are ONLY mine so get your own! This is more fun than point-counterpoint on Saturday Night Live…. E — |  American Airlines, Inc  | Not Represent American  | Fort Worth, TX       | |  Ticketing/Terminal Svcs | Airlines or AMR Corp."  | Oskee-Wow-Wow        |

Response:

> The fact of the matter is that there are too many travel agents.  Were

something like 25,000 in the united states… > Those agents that actually knew anything and offered something beyond > brain-dead service would survive, the rest would go out of business.

agreed. > Travel agencies are middlemen, and middlemen are being squeezed out of > the US economy.  Travel agents are starting to feel the heat, and will > continue to do so.

not so sure about this. i read in conde nast that around 80% of tickets on   ua and aa are issued by travel agents. as long as businesses find it   easier to deal with a travel agent (because they can charge it to an   account or p.o. number) than the airline directly, things aren’t going to   change. > In fact one of the biggest problems for them is that it is no longer > worth their while, with their costs, for many of them to deal with > Southwest-level fares.  This is why lots of travel agents are actively > hostile to Southwest and similar.  They’ve driven the cost of air travel > down to the level where commission on such cheap tickets is no longer > enough.

in all fairness, though, southwest and others that aren’t listed on the   bigger reservation systems cause travel agents to do more work to   eventually get a smaller commision because of the lower fare. they lose   both ways. > If I do a travel agent’s job, I should get their commission.

agreed. that’s one reason why i don’t like "services" like the travel   thing on delphi.com. all they are doing is cutting a reservation that I   did the legwork on. the refund is pathetic, but it is >0. blue skies Nitin Gupta                             MIT NanoStructures Laboratory

Response:

>: Sorry, this is belied by the actions of many.  Valujet and others have >: gone to no-ticket service, wholesaler markups over their costs are nothing >: like 9% (they can be as low as $25 on a $1000 ticket), talk to airline >: people off the record, and they’d love to do away with the current system. >I also take RNA’s side on this one. Southwest (perhaps somewhat >reluctantly???) left travel agent commissions intact when they made their >ticketless announcement. While it may seem like ticketless won’t happen >industry wide, think twice. There’s big money in NOT issuing tickets in >terms of just the price of the paper they’re issued on! If the only thing >that Suzie the travel agent can provide me tomorrow is an invoice, why >should I go there in the first place if I don’t need a ticket?…..

Hello, Eric.  Did you get my reply to you on this subject in e-mail?  My system went down for an OS upgrade and my mail got cut off. Anyway, for all of those others reading here, I mentioned some things that will have to be overcome for ticketless systems to be widely accepted by consumers.  From an agency standpoint, we’d save by losing the hassle of ticketing.  Tickets are a big liability if stolen, for instance.  Going back to the consumer point of view…  If you buy a thousand dollar item do you want more than an invoice?  We already hear a lot of horror stories of people not getting their tickets.  That seems to be one psychological barrier.   I still think people will still want their shopping done for them in finding the cheapest fare.  We often beat our clients price that book their tickets through EAASY SABRE.  We answer questions that the airline won’t.  Ask American Airlines about lodging or a car and see what response you will get.   Ticketless travel will alter the market.  I will wait and see how much it alters the market.  When American Airlines, or whatever, begins quoting the competition’s fares, agencies will be largely done. >The airlines are not trying to "eliminate" agencies, but it will be >somewhat difficult to justify 10% commission on a booking alone. Without >the assorted accounting and paperwork, the actual work done by an agent >will be minimal. Today, a good number of tickets are issued today by

Below is the larger problem concerning agencies.  Printing the ticket is not hard for airlines.  It is the time it takes to service so many people.  It takes a lot of people.  EAASY SABRE does not require much effort on the Airline’s part.  The person does the work. >agencies where the customer has already made the reservations either on >the phone or via EAAsy SABRE / OAG / Worldshopper. Try to convince me >that there is a lot of work to do in just issuing a ticket. It consists >of typing  W$FCK  if paying by check. Wow. 5 keystrokes. A credit card >would be 4 keystrokes plus the length of the CC number and expiration >date.. Whoa, that’s too much…. Gotta take a break in between the card >number and the expiration date!

We do a lot of this.  However, we always search for a better price for our clients.  We routinely beat the fares they book.  Hey, they become repeat customers.  Often we use alternate sources.  In other words, we still do a lot of work to make sure our customers are getting the best deal. >Second, the airline personnel needed come at a much lower rate than the >agency commissions. Trust me on that one. I make less than a travel agent!

Depends on the travel agent/agency.  I’ll bet I can find thousands who make less than you.  Tens of thousands. >: Travel agencies are middlemen, and middlemen are being squeezed out of >: the US economy.  Travel agents are starting to feel the heat, and will >: continue to do so. >: In fact one of the biggest problems for them is that it is no longer >: worth their while, with their costs, for many of them to deal with >: Southwest-level fares.  This is why lots of travel agents are actively >: hostile to Southwest and similar.  They’ve driven the cost of air travel >: down to the level where commission on such cheap tickets is no longer >: enough. >Yep. 10% of a $49 fare is only $4.99. Hardly worth the time of the agent.

Most agencies seem to be hostile to Southwest over their not being full participants on the computer systems.  Here in Sacramento volume at our airport has skyrocketed since Southwest entered the market.  More people are traveling and traveling more often.  They fly on more than Southwest. Southwest is not a problem. >: If I do a travel agent’s job, I should get their commission. >I agree….

I see this happening. >|  American Airlines, Inc  | Not Represent American  | Fort Worth, TX       | >|  Ticketing/Terminal Svcs | Airlines or AMR Corp."  | Oskee-Wow-Wow        |

–   Brown Bag Travel                         (916) 987-8390            DISCLAIMER: These opinions are ONLY mine so get your own!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->: As far as I know (I am not a travel agent) the commission on IATA tickets >: is about 9% >And that is paid by the airline. The customer receives all the agency’s >service for free. >RU>Come on, we both know that is sophistry.  That 9% is ultimately paid >RU>by the consumer. >RU>That’s another reason why I buy direct from the airline.  Not only do I >RU>do a better job myself (than any fricking travel agency) but I know that >Surprisingly, it costs the airlines almost as much to process your ticket >as paying the 9 – 10% which they pay to have a travel agent do it. >The airlines cannot afford to hire the personnel they would require if >travel agents did not exist.

Sorry, this is belied by the actions of many.  Valujet and others have gone to no-ticket service, wholesaler markups over their costs are nothing like 9% (they can be as low as $25 on a $1000 ticket), talk to airline people off the record, and they’d love to do away with the current system. The fact of the matter is that there are too many travel agents.  Were travel agent costs explicit, you would find people shopping around for the best service-charge deal, just like they shop around for anything else. Those agents that actually knew anything and offered something beyond brain-dead service would survive, the rest would go out of business. Travel agencies are middlemen, and middlemen are being squeezed out of the US economy.  Travel agents are starting to feel the heat, and will continue to do so. In fact one of the biggest problems for them is that it is no longer worth their while, with their costs, for many of them to deal with Southwest-level fares.  This is why lots of travel agents are actively hostile to Southwest and similar.  They’ve driven the cost of air travel down to the level where commission on such cheap tickets is no longer enough. Fixed commissions vanished on Wall St, and one day they will vanish in the travel business. RNA If I do a travel agent’s job, I should get their commission.

Response:

: >RU>That’s another reason why I buy direct from the airline.  Not only do I : >RU>do a better job myself (than any fricking travel agency) but I know that : >Surprisingly, it costs the airlines almost as much to process your ticket : >as paying the 9 – 10% which they pay to have a travel agent do it. : >The airlines cannot afford to hire the personnel they would require if : >travel agents did not exist. : Sorry, this is belied by the actions of many.  Valujet and others have : gone to no-ticket service, wholesaler markups over their costs are nothing : like 9% (they can be as low as $25 on a $1000 ticket), talk to airline : people off the record, and they’d love to do away with the current system. I also take RNA’s side on this one. Southwest (perhaps somewhat reluctantly???) left travel agent commissions intact when they made their ticketless announcement. While it may seem like ticketless won’t happen industry wide, think twice. There’s big money in NOT issuing tickets in terms of just the price of the paper they’re issued on! If the only thing that Suzie the travel agent can provide me tomorrow is an invoice, why should I go there in the first place if I don’t need a ticket?….. The airlines are not trying to "eliminate" agencies, but it will be somewhat difficult to justify 10% commission on a booking alone. Without the assorted accounting and paperwork, the actual work done by an agent will be minimal. Today, a good number of tickets are issued today by agencies where the customer has already made the reservations either on the phone or via EAAsy SABRE / OAG / Worldshopper. Try to convince me that there is a lot of work to do in just issuing a ticket. It consists of typing  W$FCK  if paying by check. Wow. 5 keystrokes. A credit card would be 4 keystrokes plus the length of the CC number and expiration date.. Whoa, that’s too much…. Gotta take a break in between the card number and the expiration date! Second, the airline personnel needed come at a much lower rate than the agency commissions. Trust me on that one. I make less than a travel agent! : Travel agencies are middlemen, and middlemen are being squeezed out of : the US economy.  Travel agents are starting to feel the heat, and will : continue to do so. : In fact one of the biggest problems for them is that it is no longer : worth their while, with their costs, for many of them to deal with : Southwest-level fares.  This is why lots of travel agents are actively : hostile to Southwest and similar.  They’ve driven the cost of air travel : down to the level where commission on such cheap tickets is no longer : enough. Yep. 10% of a $49 fare is only $4.99. Hardly worth the time of the agent. : Fixed commissions vanished on Wall St, and one day they will vanish in : the travel business. If only we could be so lucky…… : If I do a travel agent’s job, I should get their commission. I agree…. Big Disclaimer: there is no drive to get rid of travel agencies by any of the airlines. Southwest, albeit driven from the major CRS’s, is still working with agencies, who do drive a significant percentage of their tickets. Likewise for all the other carriers. My personal opinions are just that — personal. There are plenty of people who feel otherwise at the various airlines who help keep the current system stable, and keep my opinion from changing the way things work (probably a good thing!). Disclaimer #2: If the agencies could truly deliver a product at a lower cost than the airlines, it would have already happened. Likewise, if the agencies didn’t drive enough business, the airlines wouldn’t use ‘em anymore. It’s kind of a break even-good for both sides deal right now… E — |  American Airlines, Inc  | Not Represent American  | Fort Worth, TX       | |  Ticketing/Terminal Svcs | Airlines or AMR Corp."  | Oskee-Wow-Wow        |

Response:

: > Your local travel agent will always rip you off by 10-20% per ticket. Wrong. They charge the same price as buying direct from the airline. Price it out yourself if you don’t believe me…. : As far as I know (I am not a travel agent) the commission on IATA tickets : is about 9% And that is paid by the airline. The customer receives all the agency’s service for free. : > I realize they have to eat,too but it’s not in their best interest : > to find you the cheapest deal.(the more you pay, the bigger : > their slice of the comission). Whereas the wholsaler is moving volume : > in ‘buckets’ and none of that package stuff is ever involved. True with some agencies, but you have the right to ask for the lowest fare. If in doubt, call the airline directly. : A full-service travel agency will usually get you the lowest published fare, : if you ask for it. Consolidators are a completely different kind of operation : and only a few full-service agencies deal with them. : However, if you buy from a consolidator directly, there usually are some strings : attached (nothing comes for free). The most common strings I have encountered: : – Ticket POSITIVELY unalterable. If you need to change your return trip date :   (for example), buy a new ticket. On the lowest published fare, you could :   change this return trip for a service charge. : – No chance to use any kind of upgrade certificate/stickers etc. on such a :   ticket : – Cash or Money Order prepayment. The entire risk is upon you : – Tickets did not arrive in time for the flight booked Another problemwith consolidator tickets is that they are Even your lowest excursion fare tickets can be changed and retain some value… Beware when dealing with consolidators…..If you don’t want to work with an agency, deal direct with the airline. E — |  American Airlines, Inc  | Not Represent American  | Fort Worth, TX       | |  Ticketing/Terminal Svcs | Airlines or AMR Corp."  | Oskee-Wow-Wow        |

Response:

>: > Your local travel agent will always rip you off by 10-20% per ticket. >Wrong. They charge the same price as buying direct from the airline. Price >it out yourself if you don’t believe me….

But they may not put you on the cheapest airline. >: As far as I know (I am not a travel agent) the commission on IATA tickets >: is about 9% >And that is paid by the airline. The customer receives all the agency’s >service for free.

Come on, we both know that is sophistry.  That 9% is ultimately paid by the consumer. That’s another reason why I buy direct from the airline.  Not only do I do a better job myself (than any fricking travel agency) but I know that the money is all going (modulo taxes) to an airline and not to some parasitic intermediary. There are occasions when it’s better to use a travel agency.  However, you see people like my friends who were travelling on full-fare tickets front up at a travel agency and hand them $1400 for a fare that any moron could book.  That travel agency just got over $100 for doing close to nothing. Go to an outfit that refunds some of the commission. RNA

Response:

>: As far as I know (I am not a travel agent) the commission on IATA tickets >: is about 9% >And that is paid by the airline. The customer receives all the agency’s >service for free.

RU>Come on, we both know that is sophistry.  That 9% is ultimately paid RU>by the consumer. RU>That’s another reason why I buy direct from the airline.  Not only do I RU>do a better job myself (than any fricking travel agency) but I know that Surprisingly, it costs the airlines almost as much to process your ticket as paying the 9 – 10% which they pay to have a travel agent do it. The airlines cannot afford to hire the personnel they would require if travel agents did not exist. RU>the money is all going (modulo taxes) to an airline and not to some RU>parasitic intermediary.               Wow! you must have run into a really bad agent to have an attitude like that. RU>There are occasions when it’s better to use a travel agency.  However, RU>you see people like my friends who were travelling on full-fare tickets RU>front up at a travel agency and hand them $1400 for a fare that any moron RU>could book.  That travel agency just got over $100 for doing close to RU>nothing. Well not really.  They had to pay personnel, overhead, etc. to keep their shop open, even when they weren’t selling tickets.  For everyone who books a trip, I’m sure that the travel agent will have answered questions from at least 10 who did not buy anything. I’m not a travel agent – but I think it’s important to be fair to people who are performing (if they are good at it) a very useful service. —  * DeLuxe2 1.1 #4756 * The best defense against logic is stupidity.

Response:

> Newsgroups: rec.travel.air > Path:

news1.digex.net!news.intercon.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsxfer.it
d.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!
csusac!citrus!turk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Organization: Citrus Grove Public Access (916) 381-5822  Sacramento CA. USA > Lines: 42 (Mark Shneyder 2-4219) writes: >I deal exclusively with ‘wholesalers’ for all my travel needs.[it's the >cheapest(sometimes maybe not the most convinient) way to fly].  If you >want to feel reasured about the whole deal before you mail in your check or >money order, you can always call the airline and check with them to >see whether the ‘wholesaler’ made a reservation for a particular flight >under your name. 99% of the time your booking should be in the airline >computer database. I never had a problem with any wholesale outlet. > Great idea except that a reservation is only good if it is paid for… > Just having it there is reassuring but not a guarantee. >Your local travel agent will always rip you off by 10-20% per ticket. >People are under the impression that travel agents work for the customer. >Not entirely true — they work for the company,first. And then hotels >and airlines. And only then the customer comes into the picture. >I realize they have to eat,too but it’s not in their best interest >to find you the cheapest deal.(the more you pay, the bigger >their slice of the comission). Whereas the wholsaler is moving volume >in ‘buckets’ and none of that package stuff is ever involved. > If you get ripped off are you ever going to do business with that agent > or company again?  Of course not.  Agencies that do not look out for > their clients soon lose those that watch their pocketbooks.  In our > experience, virtually everybody watches their pocketbooks.  Some big > businesses do not.  Competition is heavy in the travel industry. > Ever hear of rebating?  Small agencies can’t afford to screw clients > as they lose their reputations a lot faster than they gain them. > Getting a high commission is great if you only want to print one > ticket.  Repeat customers are the blood that keep agencies going. >-M > —

ucbvax!ucdavis!csusac!citrus!turk >   Brown Bag Travel                         (916) 987-8390 >            DISCLAIMER: These opinions are ONLY mine so get your own!

Excuse me but this agency does look out for the customer!  You are not our bread and butter, the airline, hotel, cars, etc are.  We happen to find the lowest airfare that the public generally can’t find by calling the airline directly.  We can buy tickets in baulk and sell them at a reduced rate that the airline doesn’t even sell them for.  I just had some one from this group that bought a tkt through American and I emailed him with a cheeper price on the same flights. Plus we give the customer 5% of our commission from the airline back to them which reduces the fare far below what the airline will sell it for.  No matter what the airline is going to sell a ticket for a curtain price and that price is available to you through them or through any travel agency. You must be dealing with the wrong agencies! Rebecca Germantown Travel

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Newsgroups: rec.travel.air > Path: >news1.digex.net!news.intercon.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsxfer.i t >d.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu ! >csusac!citrus!turk > Organization: Citrus Grove Public Access (916) 381-5822  Sacramento CA. >USA > Lines: 42 >(Mark Shneyder 2-4219) writes: > >I deal exclusively with ‘wholesalers’ for all my travel needs.[it's the > >cheapest(sometimes maybe not the most convinient) way to fly].  If you > >want to feel reasured about the whole deal before you mail in your check >or > >money order, you can always call the airline and check with them to > >see whether the ‘wholesaler’ made a reservation for a particular flight > >under your name. 99% of the time your booking should be in the airline > >computer database. I never had a problem with any wholesale outlet. > Great idea except that a reservation is only good if it is paid for… > Just having it there is reassuring but not a guarantee. > >Your local travel agent will always rip you off by 10-20% per ticket. > >People are under the impression that travel agents work for the >customer. > >Not entirely true — they work for the company,first. And then hotels > >and airlines. And only then the customer comes into the picture. > >I realize they have to eat,too but it’s not in their best interest > >to find you the cheapest deal.(the more you pay, the bigger > >their slice of the comission). Whereas the wholsaler is moving volume > >in ‘buckets’ and none of that package stuff is ever involved. > If you get ripped off are you ever going to do business with that agent > or company again?  Of course not.  Agencies that do not look out for > their clients soon lose those that watch their pocketbooks.  In our > experience, virtually everybody watches their pocketbooks.  Some big > businesses do not.  Competition is heavy in the travel industry. > Ever hear of rebating?  Small agencies can’t afford to screw clients > as they lose their reputations a lot faster than they gain them. > Getting a high commission is great if you only want to print one > ticket.  Repeat customers are the blood that keep agencies going. > >-M > — >ucbvax!ucdavis!csusac!citrus!turk >   Brown Bag Travel                         (916) 987-8390 >            DISCLAIMER: These opinions are ONLY mine so get your own! >Excuse me but this agency does look out for the customer!  You are not our

That’s great.  You are replying to another travel agent, me, and not the person you should be.  I think you meant this for Arthur. >bread and butter, the airline, hotel, cars, etc are.  We happen to find the >lowest airfare that the public generally can’t find by calling the airline >directly.  We can buy tickets in baulk and sell them at a reduced rate that >the airline doesn’t even sell them for.  I just had some one from this >group that bought a tkt through American and I emailed him with a cheeper >price on the same flights. Plus we give the customer 5% of our commission >from the airline back to them which reduces the fare far below what the >airline will sell it for.  No matter what the airline is going to sell a >ticket for a curtain price and that price is available to you through them >or through any travel agency. You must be dealing with the wrong agencies!

Exactly.  A lot of places that buy in bulk do not even sell to the public but only to travel agencies.  These fares to not appear on the computer. >Rebecca >Germantown Travel

–   Brown Bag Travel                         (916) 987-8390            DISCLAIMER: These opinions are ONLY mine so get your own!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : rate compared to other agencies. When I arranged to pay for the tickets, I > : was given two choices. I could either: (1) Pay $555 with a check, or (2) > : Pay $700 by credit card. I was told that although the credit card rate was > : $700, I would get a "refund" of the difference. Somehow, this "refund" was > : connected to the fact that I was flying "air only"; i.e., I was not > : travelling as part of a tour group (unlike most of this company’s > : customers). > :      I want to pay by credit card, because I know that I am more > : "protected" with credit cards. However, I don’t want to pay extra money. Is > : there anything official I can ask for in writing that will ensure that I > : will get the lower fare? And, just out of curiousity, does anyone have any > : ideas about why this company is doing this "refund"? Is there more I should > : be worried about?

I’ve dealt with consolidators before, and this has been the case for me as well. I think this is because they need to put the full fare on the ticket; if they charge a credit card, they need to document the full fare. I’ve not had a problem in doing this in the past, but I was dealing with a consolidator that a travel agent friend had recommended, and he had done business with them for years. What they are saying can be legitimate; however, if you have no experience with them and don’t know anyone else who has experience, caveat emptor. Good luck Jeff

Response:

> Your local travel agent will always rip you off by 10-20% per ticket.

Sorry, you are getting WAY out of line. Even a travel agent must pay the rent and needs some money to buy trivial things like food. Thus I believe that they are entiteled to some profit margin or comission on the tickets you buy – or would you work for nothing? I do not think so. As far as I know (I am not a travel agent) the commission on IATA tickets is about 9% > People are under the impression that travel agents work for the customer. > Not entirely true — they work for the company,first. And then hotels

Everbody works to make a LIVELYHOOD in the first place… > I realize they have to eat,too but it’s not in their best interest > to find you the cheapest deal.(the more you pay, the bigger > their slice of the comission). Whereas the wholsaler is moving volume > in ‘buckets’ and none of that package stuff is ever involved.

A full-service travel agency will usually get you the lowest published fare, if you ask for it. Consolidators are a completely different kind of operation and only a few full-service agencies deal with them. However, if you buy from a consolidator directly, there usually are some strings attached (nothing comes for free). The most common strings I have encountered: – Ticket POSITIVELY unalterable. If you need to change your return trip date   (for example), buy a new ticket. On the lowest published fare, you could   change this return trip for a service charge. – No chance to use any kind of upgrade certificate/stickers etc. on such a   ticket – Cash or Money Order prepayment. The entire risk is upon you – Tickets did not arrive in time for the flight booked Just decide for yourself, if any given fare difference is worth the possible problems – and read those fare rules carefully before you buy the ticket… —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >: rate compared to other agencies. When I arranged to pay for the tickets, I >: was given two choices. I could either: (1) Pay $555 with a check, or (2) >: Pay $700 by credit card. I was told that although the credit card rate was >: $700, I would get a "refund" of the difference. Somehow, this "refund" was >: connected to the fact that I was flying "air only"; i.e., I was not >: travelling as part of a tour group (unlike most of this company’s >: customers). >:      I want to pay by credit card, because I know that I am more >: "protected" with credit cards. However, I don’t want to pay extra money. Is >: there anything official I can ask for in writing that will ensure that I >: will get the lower fare? And, just out of curiousity, does anyone have any >: ideas about why this company is doing this "refund"? Is there more I should >: be worried about? >Sounds like a scam to me… If they are willing to charge you one rate >for cash and another for check, I’d be a bit suspiscious…. Get the full >terms and conditions in writing from the agency -before- paying any >money. Be sure to read through it with a fine tooth comb. That $555 rate >may have more strings attached than not (if it seems too good to be true, >it usually is!). Regarding the partial refund, WHY would they give you >the package price for paying with check (little to no recourse available on >your part in the event of failure to provide services) versus a credit card, >which almost always guarantees payment to the agency? >I see scam written all over this one…. Perhaps (and hopefully) I am >wrong. But again, a lot of these deals that are too good to be true often >end up being just that — too good to be true.

$145 extra for a credit card is unreasonable.  Some places do charge extra, 3-5%, for credit card charges.  Many consolidators charge the agency that extra amount so it is reasonable.  I can think of no reason why the credit card price would be $145 extra and then get a refund…   IF they are scamming you, all the paperwork in the world is not going to cover you.  The money will be spent and you won’t recover it in most cases. Your credit card company may even refuse to reimburse you if they suspect you were suspicious before the purchase.  I agree with Eric, it looks like it smells. >|  Ticketing and Terminal Services  | Fort Worth, TX         Oskee-Wow-Wow  | >|  American Airlines, Inc           | PeoplExpress – Gone But Not Forgotten |

–   Brown Bag Travel                         (916) 987-8390            DISCLAIMER: These opinions are ONLY mine so get your own!

Response:

>I deal exclusively with ‘wholesalers’ for all my travel needs.[it's the >cheapest(sometimes maybe not the most convinient) way to fly].  If you >want to feel reasured about the whole deal before you mail in your check or >money order, you can always call the airline and check with them to >see whether the ‘wholesaler’ made a reservation for a particular flight >under your name. 99% of the time your booking should be in the airline >computer database. I never had a problem with any wholesale outlet.

Great idea except that a reservation is only good if it is paid for… Just having it there is reassuring but not a guarantee. >Your local travel agent will always rip you off by 10-20% per ticket. >People are under the impression that travel agents work for the customer. >Not entirely true — they work for the company,first. And then hotels >and airlines. And only then the customer comes into the picture. >I realize they have to eat,too but it’s not in their best interest >to find you the cheapest deal.(the more you pay, the bigger >their slice of the comission). Whereas the wholsaler is moving volume >in ‘buckets’ and none of that package stuff is ever involved.

If you get ripped off are you ever going to do business with that agent or company again?  Of course not.  Agencies that do not look out for their clients soon lose those that watch their pocketbooks.  In our experience, virtually everybody watches their pocketbooks.  Some big businesses do not.  Competition is heavy in the travel industry. Ever hear of rebating?  Small agencies can’t afford to screw clients as they lose their reputations a lot faster than they gain them. Getting a high commission is great if you only want to print one ticket.  Repeat customers are the blood that keep agencies going. >-M

–   Brown Bag Travel                         (916) 987-8390            DISCLAIMER: These opinions are ONLY mine so get your own!

Response:

>     I want to pay by credit card, because I know that I am more >"protected" with credit cards. However, I don’t want to pay extra money. Is >there anything official I can ask for in writing that will ensure that I >will get the lower fare? And, just out of curiousity, does anyone have any >ideas about why this company is doing this "refund"? Is there more I should >be worried about?

I deal exclusively with ‘wholesalers’ for all my travel needs.[it's the cheapest(sometimes maybe not the most convinient) way to fly].  If you want to feel reasured about the whole deal before you mail in your check or money order, you can always call the airline and check with them to see whether the ‘wholesaler’ made a reservation for a particular flight under your name. 99% of the time your booking should be in the airline computer database. I never had a problem with any wholesale outlet. Your local travel agent will always rip you off by 10-20% per ticket. People are under the impression that travel agents work for the customer. Not entirely true — they work for the company,first. And then hotels and airlines. And only then the customer comes into the picture. I realize they have to eat,too but it’s not in their best interest to find you the cheapest deal.(the more you pay, the bigger their slice of the comission). Whereas the wholsaler is moving volume in ‘buckets’ and none of that package stuff is ever involved. -M —

Response:

Dear gentle news group,      My wife and I flying to Casablanca in October. After calling many of the travel agents with listings in the New York Times Sunday travel section, the best deal I got was $555 RT per ticket, which was quite a good rate compared to other agencies. When I arranged to pay for the tickets, I was given two choices. I could either: (1) Pay $555 with a check, or (2) Pay $700 by credit card. I was told that although the credit card rate was $700, I would get a "refund" of the difference. Somehow, this "refund" was connected to the fact that I was flying "air only"; i.e., I was not travelling as part of a tour group (unlike most of this company’s customers).      I want to pay by credit card, because I know that I am more "protected" with credit cards. However, I don’t want to pay extra money. Is there anything official I can ask for in writing that will ensure that I will get the lower fare? And, just out of curiousity, does anyone have any ideas about why this company is doing this "refund"? Is there more I should be worried about?                      Sincerely,                      Arthur Mandel

Response:

: rate compared to other agencies. When I arranged to pay for the tickets, I : was given two choices. I could either: (1) Pay $555 with a check, or (2) : Pay $700 by credit card. I was told that although the credit card rate was : $700, I would get a "refund" of the difference. Somehow, this "refund" was : connected to the fact that I was flying "air only"; i.e., I was not : travelling as part of a tour group (unlike most of this company’s : customers). :      I want to pay by credit card, because I know that I am more : "protected" with credit cards. However, I don’t want to pay extra money. Is : there anything official I can ask for in writing that will ensure that I : will get the lower fare? And, just out of curiousity, does anyone have any : ideas about why this company is doing this "refund"? Is there more I should : be worried about? Sounds like a scam to me… If they are willing to charge you one rate for cash and another for check, I’d be a bit suspiscious…. Get the full terms and conditions in writing from the agency -before- paying any money. Be sure to read through it with a fine tooth comb. That $555 rate may have more strings attached than not (if it seems too good to be true, it usually is!). Regarding the partial refund, WHY would they give you the package price for paying with check (little to no recourse available on your part in the event of failure to provide services) versus a credit card, which almost always guarantees payment to the agency? I see scam written all over this one…. Perhaps (and hopefully) I am wrong. But again, a lot of these deals that are too good to be true often end up being just that — too good to be true. E — |  Ticketing and Terminal Services  | Fort Worth, TX         Oskee-Wow-Wow  | |  American Airlines, Inc           | PeoplExpress – Gone But Not Forgotten |

Response: