Air Travel

Question:

:>how  does he get around the credit card requirements?  I know that there is :>some program that generates a realistic number but I thought that PL stored :>the CC # as an identifier Not at all difficult. One can get as many "Internet" virtual credit card numbers as one wishes. — http://www.dissensoftware.com

Response:

> One can get as many "Internet" virtual credit card numbers as one wishes.

PL checks the accounts.

Response:

:>> One can get as many "Internet" virtual credit card numbers as one wishes. :>PL checks the accounts. I thought that only the CC company could track back to the real CC number. — http://www.dissensoftware.com

Response:

[snip] > Lastly, I’ve thought about PL for hotels, but being that hotels can vary > significantly (even at the higher quality levels), I’m a bit hesitant to try > it.  I personally prefer to stay at full service Marriott’s, but I’ll often > stay at some Hyatt’s, Hiltons, DoubleTrees, and some Whyndam’s.  I’ve found > with Marriott, their standards are consistent nationwide, whereas with other > chains like Whyndam, properties and hotel quality can vary significantly.

[snip]     For certian cities, you’ve got a pretty good idea of what properties are gonna be possible, and you can figure out if you want that property or not. At other locations, there are either too many possibilities, or too little information. The typical advice with priceline and hotels is to bid about 2 stars above what you’d accept otherwise.  My view is that priceline allows me to stay at a better quality hotel, and frequently at a much better location, for what I would otherwise pay anyway.  If you’re already staying at 5 stars and are concerned about whether the lobby has walnut or maple paneling, priceline probably isn’t for you.

Response:

>I use "scam" somewhat loosely in that the customer needs to try to determine >what the value (lowest purchase price) of the product is before attempting >to purchase the product.  

  Priceline would claim that the value of their product is not its lowest   possible purchase price, but rather its worth to you as an individual.   Many people seem to be bothered by the fact that different customers   end up paying different amounts.  This may not make sense in the   “cost-plus” pricing model (which airlines don’t follow anyway),   but makes perfect sense if you think of value simply as an individual   preference.   Isn’t this how art auctions work?  You may consider a Mondrian painting   dear at 10 bucks, while somebody else will gladly bid a few million   for it. >the difficult part is trying to determine what that >cross over value actually is (and the fact that they won’t allow multiple >bids to try to determine that point).  It’s the difficulty determining what >the minimum value is that’s the "scam" part (the tix are just as valid as >any other)

  Instead of worrying about the minimum value, Priceline tells you to   figure out the price you’d be happy with, i.e., how much would you   be willing to pay to fly from A to B on a particular day?  If there   is a seat available under that price, you’ll get it.  Again, this is   not all that different from, say, eBay.  You bid the amount you think   this item is worth to you, and if it’s high enough, you’ll get it.   You have no idea what the item’s cost might be, what the seller’s   profit margin is, what would’ve happened if you bid lower, etc.

Response:

> I use "scam" somewhat loosely in that the customer needs to try to determine > what the value (lowest purchase price) of the product is before attempting > to purchase the product.  if the "bid" is high enough, it will be accepted. > too low, rejected.

Yes, the customer has to pick a price and not underbid, but that would be not even close to a scam. The customer agrees to pay for a product if the seller is willing to sell it at that price. This is not much different than a seller agreeing to sell a product and not knowing how much someone is willing to pay. In the first case, the buyer can always go raise the bid to a price he knows the seller will accept. In the second case, the seller lowers the price to a level he know the buyer will accept.

Response:

how  does he get around the credit card requirements?  I know that there is some program that generates a realistic number but I thought that PL stored the CC # as an identifier

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "DALing" <daling43[delete]-at-hotmail.com> iterated….. > I use "scam" somewhat loosely in that the customer needs to > try to determine what the value (lowest purchase price) of > the product is before attempting to purchase the product. > if the "bid" is high enough, it will be accepted. too low, > rejected.  the difficult part is trying to determine what > that cross over value actually is (and the fact that they > won’t allow multiple bids to try to determine that point). > It’s the difficulty determining what the minimum value is > that’s the "scam" part (the tix are just as valid as any > other) > I watch with interest as my neighbor, a crafty manipulator with > too much time on his hands, uses his four differnt Email > addresses (on 3 ISPs) to fiddle about w/Priceline’s rules. > I must admit that both times I’ve used the service, once for > cheap one way (with a RT purtchase) on two days notice, the > second for a "premium" rental car, I had a pretty good idea at > what level I should bid, seemingly as a much a common sense > decision as anything else. > TMO

Response:

> how  does he get around the credit card requirements?  I know that there is > some program that generates a realistic number but I thought that PL stored > the CC # as an identifier

I would presume using a different credit card.  Most Americans, including myself, have at least two credit cards if not more; plus there are the Visa & Mastercard debit cards in addition to credit cards which are issued on everything from checking accounts to brokerage accounts. As such, if I had 5 different email addresses and 5 different Visa / MasterCard cards, I suspect one could get around the priceline system.  Then comes the issue of mailing addresses – in my case I have three that I could use.  My home (physical) address, my PO box, and my work address.  When it comes to my work address, I can receive mail both at the physical office location as well as the company PO Box, so that adds another possible mailing address.  I can also get mail at other company locations, which would then be forwarded to me via inter-office mail, so that would add even more mailing addresses where I can receive mail. As far as IP addresses, I only have one ISP for home use, but I have the ability to use different IP addresses because of DHCP or I could spoof an IP address.  I could also connect up with my PC at work from home and get onto the net from there giving me access to yet another IP address. As such, I suspect with a bit of work, one could get around the Priceline system depending on what items PL uses to identify the customer.  I would presume they would use more than just the credit card # (perhaps CC #, email address, and perhaps mailing address).   It’s been awhile since I’ve used PL (have only used it for car rentals, successfully), but when it comes to mailing addresses, I believe they require the billing address for the credit card (for security reasons).  In my case, all my credit and bank cards goto the same address which could potentially prohibit me from using more than one PL account if I wanted to work my way around the system. Anyway, anyone with some time and creativity could likely work around the PL rules, but it sounds like a hassle to me.  I don’t think I’d ever use Priceline for an airline flights, but for rental cars I have used it a few times and was able to save quite a bit of money. Lastly, I’ve thought about PL for hotels, but being that hotels can vary significantly (even at the higher quality levels), I’m a bit hesitant to try it.  I personally prefer to stay at full service Marriott’s, but I’ll often stay at some Hyatt’s, Hiltons, DoubleTrees, and some Whyndam’s.  I’ve found with Marriott, their standards are consistent nationwide, whereas with other chains like Whyndam, properties and hotel quality can vary significantly. Best, Steve

Response:

> I use "scam" somewhat loosely in that the customer needs to try to determine > what the value (lowest purchase price) of the product is before attempting > to purchase the product.  if the "bid" is high enough, it will be accepted. > too low, rejected.  the difficult part is trying to determine what that > cross over value actually is (and the fact that they won’t allow multiple > bids to try to determine that point).  It’s the difficulty determining what > the minimum value is that’s the "scam" part (the tix are just as valid as > any other)

[snip]     Well, one doesn’t "need to".  Yes, if you’re trying to get the "lowest price".  But if you have some value in mind for what you want/are willing to pay, you are free to just bid that amount.   In reality, we rarely know a sellers "cross over point".  Try buying a car.  Ever buy something and find it "on sale" a month later?  Alot of folks get bent outta shape with priceline trying to determine the lowest price they will accept.  How many other contexts does one get to do that?  You can get a reasonable idea of what a product is gonna cost.  Is that low enough for ya?    I only use them for hotel rooms.  But it’s pretty easy in that regard. I know what I can get a room for directly from a hotel web site.  So determining what price I’m willing to pay beyond that is fairly easy.  Ya bid, ya find out.  My biggest troubles come when I try to "start low and work my way up".  I frequently end up within $5 of what I suspected it would be all along.

Response:

I use "scam" somewhat loosely in that the customer needs to try to determine what the value (lowest purchase price) of the product is before attempting to purchase the product.  if the "bid" is high enough, it will be accepted. too low, rejected.  the difficult part is trying to determine what that cross over value actually is (and the fact that they won’t allow multiple bids to try to determine that point).  It’s the difficulty determining what the minimum value is that’s the "scam" part (the tix are just as valid as any other)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> you entirely misunderstand the concept of what pricescam is doing – they > have a "price" that they are obligated to pay the airline for whatever seat > they "auction" (not really an auction but I’ll play along for the sake of > explanation).  KNOWING (they KNOW what the seat costs, YOU, OTOH, don’t) > what that inventory costs plus whatever the associated distribution costs > are (very low with i-net and e-tix BTW) they will accept "bids" for various > available "seats" from various airlines.  IF you don’t "bid" enough to cover > their "costs", you lose.  You"bid" more than they pay (plus overhead, etc) > you "win".  So when those "bidding for travel" sites and the like > "advertise" what the company accepted for seats, you get an idea of what the > "going rate" is.  (Of course, those reates could be manipulated by > controlling the amounts of the winning bids posted so as to indicate a > higher price and consequently a "higher profit margin") > Its not a scam. All of the rules are available. > They are entitled to a profit. You decided waht to pay. > When you buy a normal ticket, you don’t know how much money the airline > is or isn’t making.  PL doesn’t claim to be an auction. Even so, at an > auction, they don’t always have to reveal the minimum bid required.

Response:

"DALing" <daling43[delete]-at-hotmail.com> iterated….. > I use "scam" somewhat loosely in that the customer needs to > try to determine what the value (lowest purchase price) of > the product is before attempting to purchase the product. > if the "bid" is high enough, it will be accepted. too low, > rejected.  the difficult part is trying to determine what > that cross over value actually is (and the fact that they > won’t allow multiple bids to try to determine that point). > It’s the difficulty determining what the minimum value is > that’s the "scam" part (the tix are just as valid as any > other)

I watch with interest as my neighbor, a crafty manipulator with too much time on his hands, uses his four differnt Email   addresses (on 3 ISPs) to fiddle about w/Priceline’s rules. I must admit that both times I’ve used the service, once for cheap one way (with a RT purtchase) on two days notice, the second for a "premium" rental car, I had a pretty good idea at what level I should bid, seemingly as a much a common sense decision as anything else. TMO

Response:

> you entirely misunderstand the concept of what pricescam is doing – they > have a "price" that they are obligated to pay the airline for whatever seat > they "auction" (not really an auction but I’ll play along for the sake of > explanation).  KNOWING (they KNOW what the seat costs, YOU, OTOH, don’t) > what that inventory costs plus whatever the associated distribution costs > are (very low with i-net and e-tix BTW) they will accept "bids" for various > available "seats" from various airlines.  IF you don’t "bid" enough to cover > their "costs", you lose.  You"bid" more than they pay (plus overhead, etc) > you "win".  So when those "bidding for travel" sites and the like > "advertise" what the company accepted for seats, you get an idea of what the > "going rate" is.  (Of course, those reates could be manipulated by > controlling the amounts of the winning bids posted so as to indicate a > higher price and consequently a "higher profit margin")

Its not a scam. All of the rules are available. They are entitled to a profit. You decided waht to pay. When you buy a normal ticket, you don’t know how much money the airline is or isn’t making.  PL doesn’t claim to be an auction. Even so, at an auction, they don’t always have to reveal the minimum bid required.

Response:

> except that, statistically, yield management is a different animal.  The > airline determines what the expected statistical demand for seats is and > prices "residual" seat availability accordingly (yes,why a seat tomorrow > should cost more than a seat 21 days form now is a mystery to me, but I’m no > expert in yield management)

    Because they set intial expectations for sales, and then modify them as the actual flight begins to sell. If certian fare classes are selling too slowly or quickly, they change the mix.  In someways it’s not all that different from a horse track, which sets initial odds, and then adjusts them as the bets come rolling in. > Priceline takes that "excess" inventory > (statistically shown not not to sell) and deals with it as indicated.  A > sort of "bargain basement yield management system" because as we all know, > ONCE THE DOOR CLOSES THE (EMPTY) SEAT HAS A ZERO VALUE.

[snip]    It is important to note here that they put more seats "on the market" than there are on the plane.  They authorize Priceline to sell X number of seats.  Priceline tells them when they have sold them and that figures into their yield management.  I suspect that as flight time approaches, they may "release" additional seats to priceline  (or possibly even retrieve unsold seats) if market conditions dictate.    An empty seat actually doesn’t have "zero value".  It is darn close in many ways, but between capacity to carry more cargo, and the over all effect on general purchasing practices, it may be better for the airline to let it go empty than to sell it too cheap.  Sorta the reverse of a "loss leader".  Would that be a loss follower?

Response:

except that, statistically, yield management is a different animal.  The airline determines what the expected statistical demand for seats is and prices "residual" seat availability accordingly (yes,why a seat tomorrow should cost more than a seat 21 days form now is a mystery to me, but I’m no expert in yield management)  Priceline takes that "excess" inventory (statistically shown not not to sell) and deals with it as indicated.  A sort of "bargain basement yield management system" because as we all know, ONCE THE DOOR CLOSES THE (EMPTY) SEAT HAS A ZERO VALUE.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> you entirely misunderstand the concept of what pricescam is doing – they > have a "price" that they are obligated to pay the airline for whatever seat > they "auction" (not really an auction but I’ll play along for the sake of > explanation).  KNOWING (they KNOW what the seat costs, YOU, OTOH, don’t) > what that inventory costs plus whatever the associated distribution costs > are (very low with i-net and e-tix BTW) they will accept "bids" for various > available "seats" from various airlines.  IF you don’t "bid" enough to cover > their "costs", you lose.  You"bid" more than they pay (plus overhead, etc) > you "win".  So when those "bidding for travel" sites and the like > "advertise" what the company accepted for seats, you get an idea of what the > "going rate" is.  (Of course, those reates could be manipulated by > controlling the amounts of the winning bids posted so as to indicate a > higher price and consequently a "higher profit margin") > clear as mud? >    You’ve fairly well described how it works.  And I understand > that the use of the expression "auction" really grates on people. > But honestly, write an equivalent tirade on how yield management > works and see if it appears any better.  The bottom line is that > the vast majority of pricing is really base upon "what the market > will bear" as oppose to "cost plus profit".  Priceline has just > found a different way to determine what the market will bear. > I wonder occasionally if built into pricelines system is a bid > tracking software which will raise and lower "winning" bid levels > based upon bidding patterns, especially for high volume routes/locations. > Sorta their own version of "yield management" as it were. > Virtually all businesses hide their costs from their customers > mainly to avoid having the customer use it to determine what price > they should/could/would pay.  Priceline is no different.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > you entirely misunderstand the concept of what pricescam is doing – they > have a "price" that they are obligated to pay the airline for whatever seat > they "auction" (not really an auction but I’ll play along for the sake of > explanation).  KNOWING (they KNOW what the seat costs, YOU, OTOH, don’t) > what that inventory costs plus whatever the associated distribution costs > are (very low with i-net and e-tix BTW) they will accept "bids" for various > available "seats" from various airlines.  IF you don’t "bid" enough to cover > their "costs", you lose.  You"bid" more than they pay (plus overhead, etc) > you "win".  So when those "bidding for travel" sites and the like > "advertise" what the company accepted for seats, you get an idea of what the > "going rate" is.  (Of course, those reates could be manipulated by > controlling the amounts of the winning bids posted so as to indicate a > higher price and consequently a "higher profit margin") > clear as mud?

   You’ve fairly well described how it works.  And I understand that the use of the expression "auction" really grates on people. But honestly, write an equivalent tirade on how yield management works and see if it appears any better.  The bottom line is that the vast majority of pricing is really base upon "what the market will bear" as oppose to "cost plus profit".  Priceline has just found a different way to determine what the market will bear. I wonder occasionally if built into pricelines system is a bid tracking software which will raise and lower "winning" bid levels based upon bidding patterns, especially for high volume routes/locations. Sorta their own version of "yield management" as it were. Virtually all businesses hide their costs from their customers mainly to avoid having the customer use it to determine what price they should/could/would pay.  Priceline is no different.

Response:

exactly

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I agree with what you are saying, so I must have been unclear or > befuddled-sounding in my post. > Would you agree Priceline essentially has these seats "on consignment"? The > airline allows Priceline to sell the seats, Priceline has an agreement with > the airline as to this price (call it X), and in order for the bidder to be > successful, the bidder has to "name a price" that exceeds X + Y (where Y is > the overhead fee). > Traveler > you entirely misunderstand the concept of what pricescam is doing – they > have a "price" that they are obligated to pay the airline for whatever > seat > they "auction" (not really an auction but I’ll play along for the sake of > explanation).  KNOWING (they KNOW what the seat costs, YOU, OTOH, don’t) > what that inventory costs plus whatever the associated distribution costs > are (very low with i-net and e-tix BTW) they will accept "bids" for > various > available "seats" from various airlines.  IF you don’t "bid" enough to > cover > their "costs", you lose.  You"bid" more than they pay (plus overhead, etc) > you "win".  So when those "bidding for travel" sites and the like > "advertise" what the company accepted for seats, you get an idea of what > the > "going rate" is.  (Of course, those reates could be manipulated by > controlling the amounts of the winning bids posted so as to indicate a > higher price and consequently a "higher profit margin") > clear as mud?

Response:

I agree with what you are saying, so I must have been unclear or befuddled-sounding in my post. Would you agree Priceline essentially has these seats "on consignment"? The airline allows Priceline to sell the seats, Priceline has an agreement with the airline as to this price (call it X), and in order for the bidder to be successful, the bidder has to "name a price" that exceeds X + Y (where Y is the overhead fee). Traveler

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> you entirely misunderstand the concept of what pricescam is doing – they > have a "price" that they are obligated to pay the airline for whatever seat > they "auction" (not really an auction but I’ll play along for the sake of > explanation).  KNOWING (they KNOW what the seat costs, YOU, OTOH, don’t) > what that inventory costs plus whatever the associated distribution costs > are (very low with i-net and e-tix BTW) they will accept "bids" for various > available "seats" from various airlines.  IF you don’t "bid" enough to cover > their "costs", you lose.  You"bid" more than they pay (plus overhead, etc) > you "win".  So when those "bidding for travel" sites and the like > "advertise" what the company accepted for seats, you get an idea of what the > "going rate" is.  (Of course, those reates could be manipulated by > controlling the amounts of the winning bids posted so as to indicate a > higher price and consequently a "higher profit margin") > clear as mud?

Response:

The airlines are only willing to let Priceline auction off the inventory because they expect not to be able to sell it. Thus, it’s highly likely any flights you get with Priceline might have some undesirable characteristics (although that’s not a certainty, of course). It is the airline’s decision to not allow you to standby. In return for doing them the favor of soaking up their unsaleable inventory, you get stuck with flying when they want only;

> When did they change it so you can’t go standby on another flight on the same > day? Now you’re basically stuck with your 11:53pm priceline flight no matter > what. The more they piss off passengers the less people that are going to

fly.

Response:

you entirely misunderstand the concept of what pricescam is doing – they have a "price" that they are obligated to pay the airline for whatever seat they "auction" (not really an auction but I’ll play along for the sake of explanation).  KNOWING (they KNOW what the seat costs, YOU, OTOH, don’t) what that inventory costs plus whatever the associated distribution costs are (very low with i-net and e-tix BTW) they will accept "bids" for various available "seats" from various airlines.  IF you don’t "bid" enough to cover their "costs", you lose.  You"bid" more than they pay (plus overhead, etc) you "win".  So when those "bidding for travel" sites and the like "advertise" what the company accepted for seats, you get an idea of what the "going rate" is.  (Of course, those reates could be manipulated by controlling the amounts of the winning bids posted so as to indicate a higher price and consequently a "higher profit margin") clear as mud?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The airlines are only willing to let Priceline auction off the inventory > because they expect not to be able to sell it. Thus, it’s highly likely any > flights you get with Priceline might have some undesirable characteristics > (although that’s not a certainty, of course). > It is the airline’s decision to not allow you to standby. In return for > doing them the favor of soaking up their unsaleable inventory, you get stuck > with flying when they want only; > When did they change it so you can’t go standby on another flight on the > same > day? Now you’re basically stuck with your 11:53pm priceline flight no > matter > what. The more they piss off passengers the less people that are going to > fly.

Response:

Standby was never a given, be it from Priceline, or the airlines directly. You’re stuck with what you agreed to and what you purchased. And you don’t get "stuck" with an 11:53 pm flight with them unless you specifically say you are willing to fly during that time.  Priceline doesn’t schedule flights past 10:00 So if I understand this, you went to a service that advertises you give up flexibility for the dollar savings, and you check a box agreeing that you are willing to fly between 10 pm and 2 am (as they would not have issued a midnight flight time if you didn’t check that box) and you get exactly what you asked for, and then complain that you are stuck with exactly what you asked for? Makes perfect sense to me, perhaps you should sue them, your case can be totally based on you got exactly what you wanted, at exactly the price you wanted.

> When did they change it so you can’t go standby on another flight on the same > day? Now you’re basically stuck with your 11:53pm priceline flight no matter > what. The more they piss off passengers the less people that are going to

fly.

Response:

> When did they change it so you can’t go standby on another flight on the same > day?

   Somewhere last century.  No, really, as the restrictions on advanced purchase/deep discount fares has gotten tougher, "stand-by" has gotten harder to do.  It really has nothing to do with Priceline per se.  Well, except that Priceline is selling EXTREMELY deep discounts and the airlines don’t want to give any extras with them, even FF miles. > Now you’re basically stuck with your 11:53pm priceline flight no matter > what. The more they piss off passengers the less people that are going to fly.

    That’s a trend that’s been in the works for a long time.  I call it the "Southwest effect".

Response:

When did they change it so you can’t go standby on another flight on the same day? Now you’re basically stuck with your 11:53pm priceline flight no matter what. The more they piss off passengers the less people that are going to fly.

Response:

> When did they change it so you can’t go standby on another flight on the same > day? Now you’re basically stuck with your 11:53pm priceline flight no matter > what. The more they piss off passengers the less people that are going to fly.

AFAIK, this has always been documented on the PL site. It is up to the airline, not PL, if they want to let you on an earlier flight, but nothing at the PL website indicates you have this capability.

Response:

> When did they change it so you can’t go standby on another flight on the same > day? Now you’re basically stuck with your 11:53pm priceline flight no matter > what. The more they piss off passengers the less people that are going to

fly. You should read the Priceline rules.  Then you won’t be "pissed off". — Best Greg

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->When did they change it so you can’t go standby on another flight on the > same >day? Now you’re basically stuck with your 11:53pm priceline flight no > matter >what. The more they piss off passengers the less people that are going to > fly. > You should read the Priceline rules.  Then you won’t be "pissed off".

I agree. He got what he agreed to.

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