Air Travel

Question:

<<<Do they teach strawman arguing techniques in Chiropractic School?? If not you guys have it down pat.>>> Actually we do not get arguing.  I wish we did so I could win a few with you. Now what were you saying? I seem to forget all those keystrokes you make. Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk:  http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-

Response:

<<< After all initially the chiropractic students did not even want to attempt to post evidence that chiropractic theory holds water. NOW they are at least beginning to make an attempt to prove it. It is useful for THEM to understand the nature of studies and how,  just because you have a study does not mean it is valid.>>> I agree totally.  The century of Chirobashing has forced us to perform studies and prove what we do. There are now actually more Chiropractic low back studies than medical ones (see the RAND study), however we need to perform critcal ones on such things as the effects of nociceptive firings on the viscera.  We’ve been claiming for 102 years that nerve interference is the root of all evil, and it’s time to find out whether or not the patient results we see are due to that, or something else we fix.  However, I doubt we will find out the answers to our questions before MD’s find out exactly why asprin works.  Right now I say we are the best darned musculo-skeletal specialists out there, but there must be a reason patients have success with us in other ways..otherwise we wouldn’t be in business… Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk:  http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-

Response:

<<< I read all the abstracts that backcrkr posted recently, and while most of them were case studies, there were some that  had control groups.  I dont know how to interperet them, and I hope people who do will put their two cents in.  Plus, I think all parties in this debate seem to get a kick out of it…sometimes it makes for interesting reading sometimes not.  Sincerely, Brian Daly>>> I’m glad you looked at the studies.  I feel the case studies are only of worth to doctors who want to look at a different way of treating a condition using Chiropractic methods.  In fact, I read a medical magazine called the Courtlandt Forum.  It’s full of case studies and abstracts to recent research studies. They have no love for Chiropractic, however I think there is some grace in being able to see alternate methods (to DC’s) of doing things, otherwise none of us would read this newsgroup. I do get kick out of all of this debating.  It helps me define who I am going to be as a DC, and for that I thank all parties involved.  I feel the personal jabs cannot be helped because of the excitement of the argument. Comments? Chiropractic and other medical research studies can be found on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk:  http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-

Response:

<<<<        Why?  You can find charts that compare radiation from X-rays to other forms of ambient radiation in all sorts of texts.  Maybe you should look at one and get an idea of the numbers!  Steve>>>> I’d be willing to bet that I’ve looked at those numbers a lot harder than you have… Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk:  http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> <<<<Yes, this _is_ interesting, Steve…  and horrifying, too; >> chiropractors who use ionizing radiation on patients so that >> their treatments are covered by insurance?  YIKES!>>>> >> A patient gets 45 times the amount of radiation while flying back and >forth to >> the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN. >> Nuff said. >uh… do you really think this a justifiable response to a discussion >of unnecessary exposure to x-rays??  unbelievable. >(i have no idea about the relative exposure via air travel by the way… >would vary on just how many films you plan on ordering, for example) >> Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: >> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ >i find your inclusion of this tag-line rather ironic, given your >comments above… >    Why?  You can find charts that compare radiation from X-rays to other >forms of ambient radiation in all sorts of texts.  Maybe you should look at one >and get an idea of the numbers!  Steve

Steve, I think you are missing the BIG PICTURE (surprise surprise). If you will review this message you will see that Dr. Badanes was very critical (appropriately so) at the conclusion that DC’s perform x-rays JUST to satisfy the requirements of the insurance companies. Now Jay Hafner is trying to justify the x-rays by claiming that we already get much more radiation in every day life so what is the big deal about getting a few more RADS. Sounds like a pretty RADical statement to me. What do YOU think future-DC-to-be-SteveAgocs?? Do YOU think that x-rays add a minimal amount of RADiation and it is not to worry OR do you think that x-rays should ONLY be performed when clinically indicated and NOT because insurance companies require them for reimbursement? Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address  before sending me email

Response:

Gee, another one of Rich’s attempts to fool everyone into thinking he actually has brains.

Response:

><<<<<uh… do you really think this a justifiable response to a discussion of >unnecessary exposure to x-rays??  unbelievable. >(i have no idea about the relative exposure via air travel by the way… would >vary on just how many films you plan on ordering, for example)>>>>>> >It simply makes me wonder what the alternative is?

The alternative of DC’s ordering x-rays JUST to satisfy the insurance requirement for reimbursement??? How about NOT ordering x-rays unless they are clinically appropriate? Remember that the ORIGINAL discussion which you refuse to directly address is whether chiropracters are being FORCED by insurance companies to order unnecessary x-rays. This was the contention of DC-to-be Steve Agocs. You have skirted the issue and are now bringing up a strawman argument (Steve Agocs forte). Do they teach strawman arguing techniques in Chiropractic School?? If not you guys have it down pat. Aloha, Rich  Do you go and poison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->yourself with some pain-covering drugs before doing a test?  How about get some >back-hacking surgery done?  How do you suppose those patients will be >evaluated?  One must consider all options and alternatives, and WHICH ONE IS >SAFEST.  The safest route is to live in Canada.  Their healthcare system is >ranked 15 countries higher than ours..and guess what?  They have Chiropractors >too… >Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: >http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ >RPG Greyhawk:  http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-

Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address  before sending me email

Response:

<<<<<uh… do you really think this a justifiable response to a discussion of unnecessary exposure to x-rays??  unbelievable. (i have no idea about the relative exposure via air travel by the way… would vary on just how many films you plan on ordering, for example)>>>>>> It simply makes me wonder what the alternative is?  Do you go and poison yourself with some pain-covering drugs before doing a test?  How about get some back-hacking surgery done?  How do you suppose those patients will be evaluated?  One must consider all options and alternatives, and WHICH ONE IS SAFEST.  The safest route is to live in Canada.  Their healthcare system is ranked 15 countries higher than ours..and guess what?  They have Chiropractors too… Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk:  http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> <<<<Yes, this _is_ interesting, Steve…  and horrifying, too; > chiropractors who use ionizing radiation on patients so that > their treatments are covered by insurance?  YIKES!>>>> > A patient gets 45 times the amount of radiation while flying back and >forth to > the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN. > Nuff said. >uh… do you really think this a justifiable response to a discussion >of unnecessary exposure to x-rays??  unbelievable. >(i have no idea about the relative exposure via air travel by the way… >would vary on just how many films you plan on ordering, for example) > Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ >i find your inclusion of this tag-line rather ironic, given your >comments above…

        Why?  You can find charts that compare radiation from X-rays to other forms of ambient radiation in all sorts of texts.  Maybe you should look at one and get an idea of the numbers!  Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

<<"look what the bad DC’s are doing to us with these x-rays….!" >> It makes me wonder if we shouldn’t examine the numbers… Deaths from OTC drugs:  4th leading cause of death in the nation (JAMA this week):  1284x Deaths from cancer due to xrays taken by MD’s, DC’s, and DO’s:  1.000076x Death from cancer due to exposure to radiation while flying in an airplane back and forth to the Mayo clinic in Rochester, MN:  10x Genetic abnormalities caused by exposure to ultrasound while in utero:  45x (even though the radiation is considered non-ionizing…)  :)   Run with it! Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk:  http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-

Response:

  * Steve Agocs, chiropractic student:   * Interestingly, some DC’s HAVE to take x-rays in order   * for the patient to have their care paid for by a third   * party insurance company.  So, the insurance companies   * forced DC’s to take x-rays and the MD’s use it as a means   * to say "look what the bad DC’s are doing to us with these   * x-rays….!" Interesting. Yes, this _is_ interesting, Steve…  and horrifying, too; chiropractors who use ionizing radiation on patients so that their treatments are covered by insurance?  YIKES! I would hope that if a practitioner feels it’s important enough to take an x-ray, that there would be considerably more at stake than whether or not their treatments are covered by insurance. I guess you disagree since you pretend that "some DC’s HAVE to take [these] x-rays." You see, Steve, no chiropractor _has_ to take x-rays. In fact, to take them without a medical indication is considered "bad practice." What you describe above is not only "malpractice," but insurance fraud as well. Rationalizing these crimes by claiming "it was those [evil] MDs who made us [chiropractors] do it" is grotesque, and gives new meaning to the phrase "adding insult to injury." Is this what they’re teaching you at Palmer University? Dr Badanes [TEO.]

Response:

> <<<<Yes, this _is_ interesting, Steve…  and horrifying, too; > chiropractors who use ionizing radiation on patients so that > their treatments are covered by insurance?  YIKES!>>>> > A patient gets 45 times the amount of radiation while flying back and forth to > the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN. > Nuff said.

uh… do you really think this a justifiable response to a discussion of unnecessary exposure to x-rays??  unbelievable. (i have no idea about the relative exposure via air travel by the way… would vary on just how many films you plan on ordering, for example) > Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/

i find your inclusion of this tag-line rather ironic, given your comments above…

Response:

<<<<Yes, this _is_ interesting, Steve…  and horrifying, too; chiropractors who use ionizing radiation on patients so that their treatments are covered by insurance?  YIKES!>>>> A patient gets 45 times the amount of radiation while flying back and forth to the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN. Nuff said. Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk:  http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-

Response:

>>     I have been wondering how to create a whole new newsgroup, such >as alt.chiropractic or something for this very purpose.  Do you know >how I can go about doing this?  There should be such a newsgroup, as >chiropractic is its own profession and has nothing to do with >medicine. >Medicine: (n.) the art or science of restoring or preserving health or >due physical condition, as by means of drugs, surgical operations or >applicances, manipulations, etc.  (Random House Unabridged Dictionary)

        And then ask how many MD’s use "manipulation" in their practice!  You know what he meant… Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Paul A. Delaney, Georgetown Med School >E-mail address withheld (vegetarians are "spam-free")

Response:

It has been my experience that the majority of medical physicians are not adequatley trained to deliver spinal joint manipulation. Additionally, most MD’s could not even  offer an explanation of its(joint mobilization) therepuetic rationale.

Response:

>It has been my experience that the majority of medical physicians are >not adequatley trained to deliver spinal joint manipulation. >Additionally, most MD’s could not even  offer an explanation of >its(joint mobilization) therepuetic rationale.

     You are ABSOLUTELY correct, Dr. Jeff!  They go to school to study medicine, not spinal adjustments.  They study giving medications and surgeries to mask or correct effects.  Chiropractors study the intricate workings of the nerve system to locate and correct any interferences that may be causing the effects.  Good point! Patrick V. Suglia Life University School of Chiropractic http://www.collegeclub.com/~suglia Please remove "-nospam" when replying by e-mail.

Response:

    In Kansas and Maryland, only Chiropractors are licensed to manipulate and/or adjust spinal vertebral segments.  PT’s get in trouble all the time for it, but nobody has the balls to go after the drug monechangers..yet…     I’d like to see that true across the nation.  Dr. Andrew Weil preaches that a person should go to get their low backs manipulated by "an MD trained in manipulation."  That shows exactly what he (and his lackey Rich know about Chiropractic).  Dr Weil also thinks that we all take 400 x-rays per patient and put people into millenia-long treatment plans.  Ignorance supported by the AMA!  Only the best. Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk:  http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-

Response:

>    In Kansas and Maryland, only Chiropractors are licensed to manipulate >and/or adjust spinal vertebral segments.  PT’s get in trouble all the time for >it, but nobody has the balls to go after the drug monechangers..yet… >    I’d like to see that true across the nation.  Dr. Andrew Weil preaches that >a person should go to get their low backs manipulated by "an MD trained in >manipulation."  That shows exactly what he (and his lackey Rich know about >Chiropractic).  Dr Weil also thinks that we all take 400 x-rays per patient and >put people into millenia-long treatment plans.  Ignorance supported by the AMA! > Only the best.

        Interestingly, some DC’s HAVE to take x-rays in order for the patient to have their care paid for by a third party insurance company.  So, the insurance companies forced DC’s to take x-rays and the MD’s use it as a means to say "look what the bad DC’s are doing to us with these x-rays….!" Interesting….Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Stop whining about Chiropractic research and find it on MEDLINE: >http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ >RPG Greyhawk:  http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->     I have been wondering how to create a whole new newsgroup, such >as alt.chiropractic or something for this very purpose.  Do you know >how I can go about doing this?  There should be such a newsgroup, as >chiropractic is its own profession and has nothing to do with >medicine. >Medicine: (n.) the art or science of restoring or preserving health or >due physical condition, as by means of drugs, surgical operations or >applicances, manipulations, etc.  (Random House Unabridged Dictionary) >Paul A. Delaney, Georgetown Med School >E-mail address withheld (vegetarians are "spam-free")

     Mainpulations of what?  Chiropractors do not manipulate. Osteopaths manipulate.  MDs might if they take a weekend course in it. Massage therapists might if they want to be trained.  PTs might if a someone shows them how.  Chiropractors ADJUST.  It is a TOTALLY different ballgame when you scientifically determine where, when, and why you are going to place your hands or your adjusting instrument to make a correction.  Manipulations are not specific in comparison to the chiropractic adjustment.  When you have studied four years of post-graduate schooling to ADJUST, then you can argue your point. Patrick V. Suglia Life University School of Chiropractic http://www.collegeclub.com/~suglia Please remove "-nospam" when replying by e-mail.

Response:

Recently, I have been seeing a chiropractor for problems in my hip acquired from sleeping on too soft a mattress and then hiking down a steep trail in northeastern Georgia.  I have had success.  Also, 14 years ago one treated an injured neck and was successful. I am interested in seeing postings concerning experiences with chiropractors – good or bad.  Please also feel free to concurrently e-mail me.

Response:

>Recently, I have been seeing a chiropractor for problems in my hip >acquired from sleeping on too soft a mattress and then hiking down a >steep trail in northeastern Georgia.  I have had success.  Also, 14 >years ago one treated an injured neck and was successful. >I am interested in seeing postings concerning experiences with >chiropractors – good or bad.  Please also feel free to concurrently >e-mail me.

You have an open mind!  Joy!  I have only been involved with chiropratic for about 4 years.  Here’s what my body has been able to do when adjusted:         1)  Reduce fever that was caused by cervical subluxations following a rear-impact car accident.         2)  Improve my walking by correcting an anteriorly placed right talus in my ankle.         3)  Improve my overall perception of health despite enormous stress, porr diet, and little exercise.         4)  Improve my allergies to the point where I don’t need to take any medicine for them.   I have more, but this is the big stuff!  Steve

Response:

>Recently, I have been seeing a chiropractor for problems in my hip >acquired from sleeping on too soft a mattress and then hiking down a >steep trail in northeastern Georgia.  I have had success.  Also, 14 >years ago one treated an injured neck and was successful. >I am interested in seeing postings concerning experiences with >chiropractors – good or bad.  Please also feel free to concurrently >e-mail me.

     I have been wondering how to create a whole new newsgroup, such as alt.chiropractic or something for this very purpose.  Do you know how I can go about doing this?  There should be such a newsgroup, as chiropractic is its own profession and has nothing to do with medicine.  To the good, testimonials are always the way that people can show that chiropractic works.  To the bad, it is a sure way of quality assurance to investigate such matters.  Thank you for your interest! Patrick V. Suglia Life University School of Chiropractic http://www.collegeclub.com/~suglia Please remove "-nospam" when replying by e-mail.

Response:

>     I have been wondering how to create a whole new newsgroup, such >as alt.chiropractic or something for this very purpose.  Do you know >how I can go about doing this?  There should be such a newsgroup, as >chiropractic is its own profession and has nothing to do with >medicine.

Medicine: (n.) the art or science of restoring or preserving health or due physical condition, as by means of drugs, surgical operations or applicances, manipulations, etc.  (Random House Unabridged Dictionary) Paul A. Delaney, Georgetown Med School E-mail address withheld (vegetarians are "spam-free")

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->     I have been wondering how to create a whole new newsgroup, such >as alt.chiropractic or something for this very purpose.  Do you know >how I can go about doing this?  There should be such a newsgroup, as >chiropractic is its own profession and has nothing to do with >medicine. >Medicine: (n.) the art or science of restoring or preserving health or >due physical condition, as by means of drugs, surgical operations or >applicances, manipulations, etc.  (Random House Unabridged Dictionary) >Paul A. Delaney, Georgetown Med School >E-mail address withheld (vegetarians are "spam-free")

     Mainpulations of what?  Chiropractors do not manipulate. Osteopaths manipulate.  MDs might if they take a weekend course in it. Massage therapists might if they want to be trained.  PTs might if a someone shows them how.  Chiropractors ADJUST.  It is a TOTALLY different ballgame when you scientifically determine where, when, and why you are going to place your hands or your adjusting instrument to make a correction.  Manipulations are not specific in comparison to the chiropractic adjustment.  When you have studied four years of post-graduate schooling to ADJUST, then you can argue your point.      Chiropractic is a health CARE system.  Not a sickness-oriented drug machine that preaches that modalities and external substances bring health.  Chiropractic is an understanding that the power to heal and to maintain well-being comes from within; understand that when the nerve system is free of interference, people can function at their optimum human genetic potential.  THAT is what chiropractic is all about.  It certainly is a much different philosophy than medicine can ever claim to be associated with. Patrick V. Suglia Life University School of Chiropractic http://www.collegeclub.com/~suglia Please remove "-nospam" when replying by e-mail.

Response: