Air Travel

Question:

  If terrorists want to get you, they will.  It could be in your local shopping mall or the pizza parlor.  They probably won’t attack individual homes.    The safest place to be is at home.  Order in your meals and PPV to avoid going to public places.  The arab terrorists in Israel go after public places – restaurants, movies, shopping places, busses etc.    Why are you focusing on planes?  The next attack, if there is one, could be anywhere.  The Federal Bldg. in Oklahoma was destroyed by a "local" terrorist.     If you think about it, there is no real way to protect everyone all the time.  The U.S. condoned "good" terrorists for a long time.  (Eg. Giving IRA terrorists protection here in the U.S.  Eg.  Blowing up the car carrying officials from Chile because we didn’t agree w. them – and that occuring in D.C.!!)     Now that the U.S. and the world is aware of the problem – rather than looking the other way – countries will now not allow and encourage terrorists to operate within their borders.  As recently as last year, the republicans blocked a bill that was supported by Clinton that would have frozen and blocked terrorists from easily making use of the world’s monetary system.  Sen. Graham said the banks made too much money on these accounts to take all that away from them!!    The times they are a changin’.   You are still much safer flying than driving to the airport.      I have been opposed to the security measures for years.  Many of us feel the airlines asked for id’s solely to keep people from exhanging tickets.  If i buy a bus or trian ticket, anyone can use it – why not an airline ticket?  If they want, they can register the people as they check in.  What difference does it make what name is on a ticket?    The airlines now feel by increasing the "hassle factor", people will feel safer and will fly more.  I have spoken to many frequent flyers- and the hassle factor has definitely decreased the amount of flying.  I have cancelled at least one trip because of that.   end of rant   …mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My husband and I have a trip planned for Mexico in > December.  We’re thinking of canceling because I feel the > airlines are NOT taking the necessary precautions.  I’d > go for sure if they began x-raying checked baggage.  How > easy it seems for somebody to check in whatever they darn > well please.  How would the airlines know if some suicide > idiot put a bomb in their luggage?  Can they detect that? >  Are they waiting for another catastrophe before they > look into it or what? > The airline we booked with will offer credit (with a $50 > fee) on future flights up to one year should we decide to > cancel.  I think that’s pretty generous.  I sure want to > go to Mexico, but right now, I’m very apprehensive about > it all. Just looking for some reassurance I guess. > Thanks much. > Caroline

Response:

> The media here in Switzerland have been reporting that ZRH is "one of > the rare" airports who x-ray 100% of all checked baggage, including > transfer baggage. Does anyone have an idea which the other "rare" > airports could be? I would expect airports in Isreal would have this > capacity, who else?

Taipei and Hong Kong do. I believe that Singapore also does. I can’t remember if Sydney does. But their check-in island design would allow this to be done.

Response:

<< >My husband and I have a trip planned for Mexico in :>December.  We’re thinking of canceling because I feel the :>airlines are NOT taking the necessary precautions. >> Domestic bags are generally not x-rayed, maybe now 10%. International flights most bags are x-rayed. Although those won’t detect plastic explosives. The machines that will detect those are either underused by airlines, too time consuming, or they are sitting in an FAA warehouse because no airline has asked for them. Nineteen, I believe was the reported number in the warehouse. Airline flying nowadays, you pay your money and take your chances. Welcome to the unfriendlly skies.

Response:

> It isn’t a question of whether a machine has been installed at an airport or > not, it is a question whether enough machines have been installed to process > the volume of baggage and whether the design of the airport allows for that > many machines to be installed.

The media here in Switzerland have been reporting that ZRH is "one of the rare" airports who x-ray 100% of all checked baggage, including transfer baggage. Does anyone have an idea which the other "rare" airports could be? I would expect airports in Isreal would have this capacity, who else? -Simon

Response:

>> Have you tried asking your airline? Some do, though I believe this is > much more common with European airlines than with US carriers. >X-Raying of luggage requires significant amounts of infrastructure changes to >luggage handling. The typical US check-in design is not suited to X-raying of >luggage at the check-in point, so there would have to be some large facility >built "downstairs" to handle the load. >Many asian airports are designed so that each check-in island is equipped with >its own X-ray equipment in the middle  and your luggage is checked as it is >put on the luggage belt before going down-below. So if something suspicious is >found, the passenger is still nearby and can then be called to explain/open >the luggage.

And at many other Asian airports the first thing you encounter when you enter the check-in area is an x-ray machine. All to be checked luggage is x-ray and provided with a sticker across the lock/seal and then you proceed to the check-in desk where they will only accept checked lugguge with the sticker intact. Also for years at AMS UA and DL have X-rayed your bags before you get to the check-in desks. –==++AJC++==–

Response:

Hope the OP saw NBC’s Dateline tonight. Or perhaps not… http://www.msnbc.com/news/645004.asp?cp1=1

Response:

>The media here in Switzerland have been reporting that ZRH is "one of >the rare" airports who x-ray 100% of all checked baggage, including >transfer baggage. Does anyone have an idea which the other "rare" >airports could be? I would expect airports in Isreal would have this >capacity, who else? >-Simon

Between this and his other baggage handling questions, am I the only one here who is getting a little uneasy about this guy’s motives? Simon, you gots some ’splainin’ to do! In the mantime, please DO NOT give out info that may be used by someone with evil intent…

Response:

> Between this and his other baggage handling questions, am I the only one here > who is getting a little uneasy about this guy’s motives?

I certainly hope so! You seem to suggest I’m planning to put a bomb in checked baggage. However, I don’t see how any knowledge about the software used in steering the flow of checked baggage could help. Or why I would need to know which airports x-ray all of their checked baggage, if I already know that all European airports except ZRH don’t do this. > In the mantime, please DO NOT give out info that may be used by someone with > evil intent…

This seems a bit paranoid. Not giving out easily available public information won’t stop any terrorist. And pretty much ANY info may be used by someone with an evil intent. "How do I get from the airport to downtown?" "There’s a Greyhound bus." "Great, now I know where I can kill the driver." Of course everybody can decide for themselves, but I for my part would rather have a free and open society with _perhaps_ a bit higher risk of dying of a terrorist act than a society of mutual distrust, constant surveillance and unfree speech. -Simon, being off-topic

Response:

>> Between this and his other baggage handling questions, am I the only one here > who is getting a little uneasy about this guy’s motives? >I certainly hope so! You seem to suggest I’m planning to put a bomb in >checked baggage. However, I don’t see how any knowledge about the >software used in steering the flow of checked baggage could help. Or why >I would need to know which airports x-ray all of their checked baggage, >if I already know that all European airports except ZRH don’t do this.

OK, fair enough… But you still didn’t answer the question:  WHY do you want to know this information?

Response:

And, also ask him if he’s ever been a member of the Communist Party. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Between this and his other baggage handling questions, am I the only one here >> who is getting a little uneasy about this guy’s motives? >I certainly hope so! You seem to suggest I’m planning to put a bomb in >checked baggage. However, I don’t see how any knowledge about the >software used in steering the flow of checked baggage could help. Or why >I would need to know which airports x-ray all of their checked baggage, >if I already know that all European airports except ZRH don’t do this. >OK, fair enough… >But you still didn’t answer the question:  WHY do you want to know this >information?

Response:

<< >> Between this and his other baggage handling questions, am I the only one here > who is getting a little uneasy about this guy’s motives?

"Loose lips sink ships"was the old WWII refrain.

Response:

> X-Raying of luggage requires significant amounts of infrastructure changes to > luggage handling. The typical US check-in design is not suited to X-raying of > luggage at the check-in point, so there would have to be some large facility > built "downstairs" to handle the load.

Hrm, at LHR, at least in the Virgin Airlines area, they have X-ray machines at the beginning of the roped area before check-in. So a person’s bags went through X-ray before they were even in line. While surely putting in such a machine and staffing it is not free, I can’t imagine why a large facility would be required. IIRC, there was a similar machine in T4 at ORD, when checking in for Sabena, though I hadn’t noticed it on other airlines. > Many asian airports are designed so that each check-in island is equipped with > its own X-ray equipment in the middle  and your luggage is checked as it is > put on the luggage belt before going down-below. So if something suspicious is > found, the passenger is still nearby and can then be called to explain/open > the luggage.

Which is exactly what the above situation would allow.  Not free, but wouldn’t involve rebuilding the airports.

Response:

> Have you tried asking your airline? Some do, though I believe this is > much more common with European airlines than with US carriers.

X-Raying of luggage requires significant amounts of infrastructure changes to luggage handling. The typical US check-in design is not suited to X-raying of luggage at the check-in point, so there would have to be some large facility built "downstairs" to handle the load. Many asian airports are designed so that each check-in island is equipped with its own X-ray equipment in the middle  and your luggage is checked as it is put on the luggage belt before going down-below. So if something suspicious is found, the passenger is still nearby and can then be called to explain/open the luggage.

Response:

>>My husband and I have a trip planned for Mexico in >December.  We’re thinking of canceling because I feel the >airlines are NOT taking the necessary precautions.  I’d >go for sure if they began x-raying checked baggage. >Have you tried asking your airline? Some do, though I believe this is >much more common with European airlines than with US carriers.

You really expect them to say ‘No’ ? X-ray machines are installed at some US Airports, installed but not used at others, and not installed at most. While you might have been able to ascertain which prior to Sep. 11, this information is undoubtedly now ’secret’. My guess (just that) is those airports where curbside check-in has been reinstated *probably* do X-ray or sniff checked bags. FWIW.

Response:

> You really expect them to say ‘No’ ? X-ray machines are installed at some US > Airports, installed but not used at others, and not installed at most.

It isn’t a question of whether a machine has been installed at an airport or not, it is a question whether enough machines have been installed to process the volume of baggage and whether the design of the airport allows for that many machines to be installed. Discussions about requirement for X-RAYing all of luggage began after Air India in 1985.  Airports built prior to that time are unlikely to have the room and design to allow for this. > information is undoubtedly now ’secret’. My guess (just that) is those > airports where curbside check-in has been reinstated *probably* do X-ray or > sniff checked bags. FWIW.

My guess is that curb-side counters are now manned by trained airline employees instead of some unknown volunteers. And there is the question of whether curb0side luggage belts are segragated to allow only that luggage to be x-rayed.

Response:

> Many asian airports are designed so that each check-in island is equipped with > its own X-ray equipment in the middle  and your luggage is checked as it is > put on the luggage belt before going down-below. So if something suspicious is > found, the passenger is still nearby and can then be called to explain/open > the luggage.

Northwest’s counter at Terminal B at EWR has an Invision machine (the kind that ruins film :< ) located right next to the check-in counters (on the south side – the 40s bulb).  The added bonus is that it’s very visible to anyone thinking of doing something to NW’s EWR operation. Matthew

Response:

:>My husband and I have a trip planned for Mexico in :>December.  We’re thinking of canceling because I feel the :>airlines are NOT taking the necessary precautions.  I’d :>go for sure if they began x-raying checked baggage.  How :>easy it seems for somebody to check in whatever they darn :>well please.  How would the airlines know if some suicide :>idiot put a bomb in their luggage?  Can they detect that? They are xraying random checked bags on USA flights. My checked bag was xrayed Wednesday 17 Oct in LGA. I believe all international bags have been xrayed for a while. :> Are they waiting for another catastrophe before they :>look into it or what? Nope. :>The airline we booked with will offer credit (with a $50 :>fee) on future flights up to one year should we decide to :>cancel.  I think that’s pretty generous.  I sure want to :>go to Mexico, but right now, I’m very apprehensive about :>it all. Just looking for some reassurance I guess. Why do you think things will be different then? — http://www.dissensoftware.com

Response:

My husband and I have a trip planned for Mexico in December.  We’re thinking of canceling because I feel the airlines are NOT taking the necessary precautions.  I’d go for sure if they began x-raying checked baggage.  How easy it seems for somebody to check in whatever they darn well please.  How would the airlines know if some suicide idiot put a bomb in their luggage?  Can they detect that?  Are they waiting for another catastrophe before they look into it or what? The airline we booked with will offer credit (with a $50 fee) on future flights up to one year should we decide to cancel.  I think that’s pretty generous.  I sure want to go to Mexico, but right now, I’m very apprehensive about it all. Just looking for some reassurance I guess. Thanks much. Caroline

Response:

>My husband and I have a trip planned for Mexico in >December.  We’re thinking of canceling because I feel the >airlines are NOT taking the necessary precautions.  I’d >go for sure if they began x-raying checked baggage.  How >easy it seems for somebody to check in whatever they darn >well please.  How would the airlines know if some suicide >idiot put a bomb in their luggage?  Can they detect that? > Are they waiting for another catastrophe before they >look into it or what?

Yes.  See below. >The airline we booked with will offer credit (with a $50 >fee) on future flights up to one year should we decide to >cancel.  I think that’s pretty generous.  I sure want to >go to Mexico, but right now, I’m very apprehensive about >it all. Just looking for some reassurance I guess. >Thanks much. >Caroline

Sad to say, they are not. Republicans say "too expensive".  How about they take some billions from that idiot boondoggle "Star Wars" welfare-for-aerospace program and xray all checked luggage? Furthermore, ground crews can still get access with phony I.D. since they are not screened. Anybody can secrete a deadly device on a plane. Mostly I say a plague on both parties, but in this case, the Reps really are shitting on our safety and security. Sorry to be negative, but facts are facts, Who are  your legislators?  Call/email/fax/write. Pressure is required. — Polar

Response:

@corp.supernews.com: > My husband and I have a trip planned for Mexico in > December.  We’re thinking of canceling because I feel the > airlines are NOT taking the necessary precautions.

Airline security today is as much of a joke today as it was on the morning of Sept 11.  The so-called ‘improved’ security measures merely an act of theater intended to sooth the nieve and ignorant.  Both the airlines and governments are resisting all attempts to see long-standing security loopholes–such as screening airside ground staff at airports–closed on the grounds that closing these loopholes will cost too much. Since Sept 11, only two of the new security measures will make a releat   attack difficult.  The first is that a considerable number of passengers are now prepared to fight back in the event of a hijacking.  The second is that the armed forces are prepared to shoot down civil aircraft.  Even though knives have been banned, the vast majority of security screeners lack the experience and training to find hidden knives. Security tests conducted immediately after the resumption of air travel in North America revealed the deplorable state of aviation security even during a time of maximum alert.  Many test teams had a %100 success rate in smuggling knives and even loaded guns onto aircraft. On the bright side, the number of terrorists active in North America is likely to be pretty much unchanged since Sept 11.  The threat of being killed in a terrorist attack, while somehat higher today than on Sept 10, still does not exceed the risk of dying in a car crash.  Airport security, however, makes virtually no positive contribution to the risk of dying in a terrorist incident. — Coridon Henshaw — http://www3.sympatico.ca/gcircle/csbh No mercy.

Response: