Air Travel » Air Travel Ticket » United announces policy changes…
Question:
> The bag size is huge, it takes a 29 inch overstuffed expanded bag to be > considered too big, and the charge would be $80 if for some reason you > needed to carry the entire contents of your house, not $270 for an over size > bag. I have yet to understand how anybody has enough stuff to fill a bag > like that, 62" (length plus width plus height) is an incredibly large bag, > and you are allowed two of them per person.
I had a seat on a recent BWI-DFW-SNA flight where I could see baggage being loaded. I was amazed at the huge bags When you go to resort locations there always seem to be really huge bags. I assume this also applies to cruises, which tend to be dressy.
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Let me try this again. A standard current model 30 inch bag is about 30 x 21 x 10, for a total of 61 inches, it fits, and doesn’t cost anymore. A standard 30 inch bag is huge. A standard current model 26 inch bag is 26 x 19 x 9, for a total of 54 inches, it fits, and is still quite large You would have to search out a bag that is larger then 62 inches when you add up the three dimensions. most of the luggage makers don’t make bags that size anymore, their dimensions magically add up to 61 or 61.5. What the paper is probably seeing is everybody is dumping last year’s luggage because it is oversize (same thing that happened when they changed the carry on size), but go to Two 30 inch bags will not fit in my trunk, and would allow me to packs months worth of stuff (and is still not large enough to pay an extra fee). The average person isn’t carrying two giant bags like that, or one giant and one slightly smaller (55 inches) one depending on the airline. What airline is charging $270 for international flights per bag? Delta is still $80. Continental is $100 international. No airline is charging $270 for a bag 2" oversize. You will pay that much if you have an oversize bag that is in addition to the two you are allowed to carry, and is overweight (three fees, one for the additional bag, one for being overweight, and one for being oversized), but please tell us what airline will charge $270 for an allowed checked bag that is simply 2" too big? Certainly no average person is showing up with three huge bags to check per person, with one oversized and overweight. I don’t think I have enough stuff in the entire house to fill three bags like that if I don’t count furniture. A standard office desk is 29 and one half inches tall. The average traveler isn’t showing up with three bags that are taller then a standard office desk.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Very likely the average person would not know/care re upgrades and rule > waivers, but 62" suitcases are not that large. An article in today’s > Cleveland Plain Dealer pointed out the commonness of suitcases being sold > w/64" l+w+h, just enough over the limit to trigger fees….and the article > also mentioned that while the domestic fee would be $80, the international > fee charged to the customer was $270 per bag..hence my example.
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I don’t really see how backtoback could be illegal. But if it were and I wanted to do it I’d just buy the two tickets on different airlines… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m actually surprised the numbers are that close, sometimes you can save > thousands. > Personally, I think it should be fully legal. You are buying two separate > tickets, two separate contracts. As long as you use both coupons in each > ticket, it doesn’t matter when you use them.
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> Of course, then the traveler decides to use a different airline > for the nested or back to back ticket. S/he finds then Jet Blue has > a round trip between JFK and DEN for $216.50. Then s/he finds that there > is no saturday night stay requirement. Then s/he decides to buy all > four segments on Jet Blue, for a total price of $433 instead of $698 > or $944.
Actually, in the case of regular travel, it’s just a matter of buying return tickets from B to A instead of from A to B. Which I don’t see how in hell an airline could make the case is a violation of anything. BTW, people might want to look at www.davidmrowell.com/travel/columns.htm Still, in the long run, I don’t see an alternative to more truth in prices i.e. a closer relationship between costs and prices. If you want a full service airline, you should be prepared to pay more for it. And service should indeed be full service.
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Against their silly rules and illegal like you can get arrested for it are two different terms. It’s against the airline’s rules, though it’s not illegal.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I don’t really see how backtoback could be illegal. But if it were and I > wanted to do it I’d just buy the two tickets on different airlines… > > I’m actually surprised the numbers are that close, sometimes you can > save > > thousands. > Personally, I think it should be fully legal. You are buying two separate > tickets, two separate contracts. As long as you use both coupons in each > ticket, it doesn’t matter when you use them.
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> Against their silly rules and illegal like you can get arrested for it are > two different terms. It’s against the airline’s rules, though it’s not > illegal.
But Surely when you make a contract (i.e. buy a ticket) you agree to the terms of that contract (the silly rules), and therefore if you break the silly rules you are in breach of contract – which is illegal.
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>>Against their silly rules and illegal like you can get arrested for it are >two different terms. It’s against the airline’s rules, though it’s not >illegal. > But Surely when you make a contract (i.e. buy a ticket) you agree to the > terms of that contract (the silly rules), and therefore if you break the > silly rules you are in breach of contract – which is illegal.
That’s what they want you to believe. But it’s not quite that simple. Some clauses might just be illegal. Some might be extraneous and again possibly not tenable in court. One hears that the airlines are trying very hard not to have these conditions tested in court. And in the few cases that have, they may well have lost bad. Finally, I would think they are supposed to make a decent effort in communicating these rules to you. Which is again arguable. So, valid contractual clauses or just intimidation? Until we have good testing in court, it’s going to stay somewhere in the grey zone and people here will argue to death…
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> Very likely the average person would not know/care re upgrades and rule > waivers, but 62" suitcases are not that large. An article in today’s > Cleveland Plain Dealer pointed out the commonness of suitcases being sold > w/64" l+w+h, just enough over the limit to trigger fees….and the article > also mentioned that while the domestic fee would be $80, the international > fee charged to the customer was $270 per bag..hence my example.
Air Canada International oversize bag or an extra bag charge flying YVR-SYD was $130 CDN or about $85 USD BH
Response:
> Air Canada International oversize bag or an extra bag charge flying YVR-SYD > was $130 CDN or about $85 USD
However, what matters more is whether check in agents have enough flexibility to allow excess luggage on light travel days, or whether they have clearly been instructed to strictly enforce the luggage limits on all passengers and all flights. Seems that recent moves by the airlines were aimed are strictly enforcing existing rules.
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>Say I want to fly from New York to Denver, and do it every week. I fly out >on Tuesday, and back on Thursday. No Saturday night stay, picking the week >of Sept 18, the cost is $472 each, so to fly out on the 17th and return on >the 19th, and do it again the following week will cost $944. >With back to back, I would get a ticket from New York to Denver and back, >leaving New York on the 17, returning on the 26th for $349. I would buy >another ticket, this time from Denver to New York and back to Denver, >leaving Denver on the 19th, returning to New York on the 24th, again for >$349.
Of course, then the traveler decides to use a different airline for the nested or back to back ticket. S/he finds then Jet Blue has a round trip between JFK and DEN for $216.50. Then s/he finds that there is no saturday night stay requirement. Then s/he decides to buy all four segments on Jet Blue, for a total price of $433 instead of $698 or $944. Somehow, that doesn’t sound like a good scenario for United Airlines. — Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
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> The bag size is huge, it takes a 29 inch overstuffed expanded bag to be > considered too big, and the charge would be $80 if for some reason you > needed to carry the entire contents of your house, not $270 for an over size > bag. I have yet to understand how anybody has enough stuff to fill a bag > like that, 62" (length plus width plus height) is an incredibly large bag, > and you are allowed two of them per person. > For the average traveler, none of this will have any bearing what so ever on > them except for some of the US air changes in not allowing stand by or > another flight if you miss the flight. The rest won’t even notice, they > don’t buy upgrade certificates, they don’t know anything about rules being > waived, and they certainly don’t carry giant suitcases with them.
Very likely the average person would not know/care re upgrades and rule waivers, but 62" suitcases are not that large. An article in today’s Cleveland Plain Dealer pointed out the commonness of suitcases being sold w/64" l+w+h, just enough over the limit to trigger fees….and the article also mentioned that while the domestic fee would be $80, the international fee charged to the customer was $270 per bag..hence my example.
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> They just keep attracting customers, don’t they? > Nothing says "come do business with me" like increased fares, increased costs > for upgrades, greater restrictions and rude service, hu? > Sure makes me want to run out and fly United.
Let’s see—-we have "miss your flight and your ticket is worthless" by USAirways, "your bag is 2 inches too big–that’ll be $270 extra, please" by Delta & Continental, and the just-discussed stuff at United. Will the average person wanna risk hundreds or more in losses due to a traffic or being able to take the stuff needed for a major vacation (without paying more than the cost of the ticket itself) on Continental?? I see an even bigger drop in airline revenues ahead.
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> Let’s see—-we have "miss your flight and your ticket is worthless" by > USAirways, "your bag is 2 inches too big–that’ll be $270 extra, please" > by Delta & Continental, and the just-discussed stuff at United. Will the > average person wanna risk hundreds or more in losses due to a traffic or > not being able to take the stuff needed for a major vacation (without > paying more than the cost of the ticket itself) on Continental?? I see an > even bigger drop in airline revenues ahead.
The only one of these that’s really significant – and can lead to costs that are outside of the customer’s control – is US Airways. The others may be annoying but they aren’t deal breakers. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu New mini photo-feature: Life in DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/
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> The only one of these that’s really significant – and can lead to costs that > are outside of the customer’s control – is US Airways. The others may be > annoying but they aren’t deal breakers. > miguel
Definitely the USAirways "missed flight" rule is worst and the most significant in being a "deal breaker". But the other 2 "rules" have that potential also. If a couple is going to buy 2 $800 tickets to Paris for a month, then finds out they have to pay another $1080 in luggage fees because their suitcases are slightly large(and they need all the stuff they are taking due to the length and sked of the trip), that could easily be enough extra $$ to have them re-consider the trip—-or go to another airline who isn’t as anal about luggage size. As for back-to-back, enough other posters have already mentioned what will happen—-"ticket 2" will just be purchased from another airline—not a "deal breaker" per se, but it will be with that particular airline.
Response:
The bag size is huge, it takes a 29 inch overstuffed expanded bag to be considered too big, and the charge would be $80 if for some reason you needed to carry the entire contents of your house, not $270 for an over size bag. I have yet to understand how anybody has enough stuff to fill a bag like that, 62" (length plus width plus height) is an incredibly large bag, and you are allowed two of them per person. The only fee so far released by United is the cost of buying 500 mile upgrade certificates, so not sure what is considered greatly increased fees. For the average traveler, none of this will have any bearing what so ever on them except for some of the US air changes in not allowing stand by or another flight if you miss the flight. The rest won’t even notice, they don’t buy upgrade certificates, they don’t know anything about rules being waived, and they certainly don’t carry giant suitcases with them.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Let’s see—-we have "miss your flight and your ticket is worthless" by > USAirways, "your bag is 2 inches too big–that’ll be $270 extra, please" by > Delta & Continental, and the just-discussed stuff at United. Will the > average person wanna risk hundreds or more in losses due to a traffic or not > being able to take the stuff needed for a major vacation (without paying > more than the cost of the ticket itself) on Continental?? I see an even > bigger drop in airline revenues ahead.
Response:
Say I want to fly from New York to Denver, and do it every week. I fly out on Tuesday, and back on Thursday. No Saturday night stay, picking the week of Sept 18, the cost is $472 each, so to fly out on the 17th and return on the 19th, and do it again the following week will cost $944. With back to back, I would get a ticket from New York to Denver and back, leaving New York on the 17, returning on the 26th for $349. I would buy another ticket, this time from Denver to New York and back to Denver, leaving Denver on the 19th, returning to New York on the 24th, again for $349. On the first trip I would use the first portion of the NY-Den ticket and to fly home the first portion of the Den-NY ticket. I would use the second portions the following week, my total cost $698, saving me $246 and not having to stay a Saturday. I’m actually surprised the numbers are that close, sometimes you can save thousands.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Back-to-Back Ticketing > As a result of an audit of tickets earlier this year, the company detected > a > sizeable number of transactions that involve violations of its tariff > rules. > The prohibited practice is commonly referred to as "back-to-back > ticketing." > Flight coupons across tickets are used in an order other than that in > which > they were issued. Ultimately, it results in a wrongful effort to obtain a > discount to which the customer is not entitled. > This resulted in travel agencies receiving formal notification in June of > United’s plan to enforce its ticketing rules, including suspending or > terminating the agency’s ticketing authority on United and taking action > against the agency to recover the difference in fares by: > Requiring the traveler to pay the applicable fare differential; or > Issuing a > debit memo to travel agencies for the fare difference and collecting the > amount due in full. > Just what are they referring to here. Is this the old ‘ buy two tickets and > use the coupons to thwart the dreaded Saturday night stay. Can anyone > explain? > BH
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> Lastly, the monetary purchase price > and miles needed to purchase upgrades will be increased effective, > Oct. 1, 2002 – the first increase since 1996. This will not affect the > way that customers earn complimentary upgrades, or applicable booking > codes. > Monetary purchase price: > Premiers, Premier Executives, 1Ks > Four, 500 Mile Upgrades — $200
Didn’t this just increase from $75 to $125 recently?
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just what are they referring to here. Is this the old ‘ buy two tickets and > use the coupons to thwart the dreaded Saturday night stay. Can anyone > explain? > Back to back: > Ticket 1: A to B on monday. > B to A on tuesday of following week. Qualifies for saturday stay. > Ticket 2: B to A on thursday > A to B on sunday (qualifies for saturday stay) > Tickets are used in: > A to B on monday using coupon 1 of ticket 1 > B to A on thursday using coupon 1 of ticket 2 > A to B on sunday using copon 2 of ticket 2 > B to A on tuesday using coupon 2 of ticket 1
So, will they permit nested tickets still?
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How is this going to affect US Airways/United code sharing? With such differnt policies? Why not just book through United?
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They just keep attracting customers, don’t they? Nothing says "come do business with me" like increased fares, increased costs for upgrades, greater restrictions and rude service, hu? Sure makes me want to run out and fly United.
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> I’m actually surprised the numbers are that close, sometimes you can save > thousands.
Personally, I think it should be fully legal. You are buying two separate tickets, two separate contracts. As long as you use both coupons in each ticket, it doesn’t matter when you use them. Secondly, if old-style airlines feel the need to prevent their own customers from finding ways to fly with them at a competitive prices, then those customers will use other airlines instead of paying the exhorbitant prices the old style airline expects them to pay by prohibiting back to back. Airlines should be encouraging back to back as a way to attract customers away from Southwest. Airlines MUST find ways to be profitable with lower yields, instead of trying to raise the yields.
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> On the heels of the US Air changes, here it comes: (though doesn’t seem as > dramatic as US Air).
Nowhere near as dramatic. A change in upgrade policies mostly.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Back-to-Back Ticketing > As a result of an audit of tickets earlier this year, the company detected a > sizeable number of transactions that involve violations of its tariff rules. > The prohibited practice is commonly referred to as "back-to-back ticketing." > Flight coupons across tickets are used in an order other than that in which > they were issued. Ultimately, it results in a wrongful effort to obtain a > discount to which the customer is not entitled. > This resulted in travel agencies receiving formal notification in June of > United’s plan to enforce its ticketing rules, including suspending or > terminating the agency’s ticketing authority on United and taking action > against the agency to recover the difference in fares by: > Requiring the traveler to pay the applicable fare differential; or Issuing a > debit memo to travel agencies for the fare difference and collecting the > amount due in full.
Just what are they referring to here. Is this the old ‘ buy two tickets and use the coupons to thwart the dreaded Saturday night stay. Can anyone explain? BH
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> Just what are they referring to here. Is this the old ‘ buy two tickets and > use the coupons to thwart the dreaded Saturday night stay. Can anyone > explain?
Back to back: Ticket 1: A to B on monday. B to A on tuesday of following week. Qualifies for saturday stay. Ticket 2: B to A on thursday A to B on sunday (qualifies for saturday stay) Tickets are used in: A to B on monday using coupon 1 of ticket 1 B to A on thursday using coupon 1 of ticket 2 A to B on sunday using copon 2 of ticket 2 B to A on tuesday using coupon 2 of ticket 1 In essence , you do 2 return trips from A->B->A, neither of which stays a saturday at B. Airlines think this is cheating. Of course, in the case of US, you just need to buy ticket 2 with a different airline and then everyone is happy, and UA has lost a sale.
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On the heels of the US Air changes, here it comes: (though doesn’t seem as dramatic as US Air). Press Release Source: United Airlines United Announces Policy Changes To Support Strategic Recovery Plan Changes apply to upgrades, fare rules and corporate discount fares Thursday August 29, 5:52 pm ET CHICAGO–(BUSINESS WIRE)–Aug. 29, 2002–United announced today several policy changes aligned with current market conditions and overall corporate objectives. "These changes are part of United’s overall strategic plan to cut costs wherever possible, while maintaining a product that our customers have told us is important to them," said Chris Bowers, senior vice president-Marketing, Sales and Reservations. "At the same time, we must be sure that our products and services are priced appropriately for the value they offer." United’s policy changes will apply to customer upgrades; fare rules; and discounts on sale, promotional and other already deeply discounted fares. Upgrades In the fall, a number of changes will be implemented for United’s upgrade program. "Upgrades are a major motivator for our customers," Bowers said. "Consistently, we receive feedback from our best customers that upgrades are too complex and not simple to use. Today we are announcing a number of policy changes to make travel easier." United is streamlining and simplifying the markets where customers can use their upgrades, giving them greater flexibility and ease of use across United’s network. The number of upgrade award levels has been reduced to two. (effective first quarter 2003) Internationally, United is simplifying the number of miles needed for Mileage Plus Award upgrades. Over time, United will move to automate all customer upgrades, similar to previously announced e-ticket initiatives. As an added bonus for Premier members of United’s award-winning Mileage Plus program, upgrade clearance policies will increase to 48 hours before departure, from 24 hours. All other upgrade clearances will follow existing time lines. (effective first quarter 2003) Lastly, the monetary purchase price and miles needed to purchase upgrades will be increased effective, Oct. 1, 2002 – the first increase since 1996. This will not affect the way that customers earn complimentary upgrades, or applicable booking codes. Monetary purchase price: Premiers, Premier Executives, 1Ks Four, 500 Mile Upgrades — $200 General Members and other customers Four, 500 Mile Upgrades — $325 Mileage Purchase Price: Eight, 500-mile upgrades – 50,000 miles Miles for North America Mileage Plus Award upgrades Y/B Booking Codes – 8,000 miles All other booking codes – 15,000 miles Miles for International Mileage Plus award upgrades: Y/B Booking Codes – 15,000 miles C/M/H Booking Codes – 30,000 miles Clearance Policies 1K 100 Hours before departure Premier Exec 72 Premier 48 (an improvement over the General member/Non-member 24 previous 24-hour policy) Additional information regarding United’s upgrade program will be available through future communications from Mileage Plus and via the company’s web site, www.united.com. Fare Rules Due to the dramatic reduction in published fare levels and in support of the company’s recovery plan, United has a renewed commitment to the integrity of our fare rules. As a result, effective August 28, 2002, United will no longer allow waivers on fare rules, including, but not limited to: — Advance purchase; — Ticketing time limits; — Minimum/maximum stay requirements; — Administrative service charges; and — Other requirements and tariff rules. United will be enforcing these rules internally and throughout the corporate and travel agency community. The company will no longer be granting Fare Rule Waivers on any fare. This applies to North America and all International markets. Discounts on Sale, Promotional and Other Deeply Discounted Fares Continuing with its cost-saving efforts, as previously announced, the company also is eliminating discounts on sale, promotional and other deeply discounted fares when negotiating contracts with corporate customers. This applies to North America and all International markets. "While we are doing all we can to maximize revenue, the growth of low-cost competitors and the soft economy are out of our control," says Bowers. "We believe even when the economy improves, the changes in air travelers’ habits and attitudes, and the impact of low-cost carriers, will keep revenues depressed. A continued focus on lower costs is vital to United’s future." Other cost-saving initiatives include: Paper Tickets As United continues to leverage technology to better serve its customers, the company recently announced that it will move to full electronic ticketing. United will stop issuing paper tickets within the United States by July 2003; the carrier plans to issue only electronic tickets for all eligible itineraries, at all locations – domestic and international – by January 2004. Effective September 1, 2002, United’s $20.00 paper ticket fee will apply to all customer-requested paper tickets issued in the United States, U.S. Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico for E-Ticket eligible itineraries, including those issued by travel agencies. The fee applies for printing transactions, either at the time of original ticket issuance or upon request to convert existing electronic tickets to paper. Travel agents should collect this fee on a Miscellaneous Charges Order (MCO). Corporate Solutions United announced in March that it is implementing Corporate Solutions, a contract management system for corporate sales agreements. Corporate Solutions provides the technological tools to develop, track, analyze and generate contracts tailored to the specific needs of a corporation. The system also will issue reports for improved contract financial performance, higher market share and better customer communications, therefore establishing a more collaborative relationship with customers. "Corporate Solutions is the centerpiece of a suite of enhancements to our way of doing business that will benefit our customers and us," Bowers explained. "We have a unique opportunity for positively changing the way this part of the business is done." Back-to-Back Ticketing As a result of an audit of tickets earlier this year, the company detected a sizeable number of transactions that involve violations of its tariff rules. The prohibited practice is commonly referred to as "back-to-back ticketing." Flight coupons across tickets are used in an order other than that in which they were issued. Ultimately, it results in a wrongful effort to obtain a discount to which the customer is not entitled. This resulted in travel agencies receiving formal notification in June of United’s plan to enforce its ticketing rules, including suspending or terminating the agency’s ticketing authority on United and taking action against the agency to recover the difference in fares by: Requiring the traveler to pay the applicable fare differential; or Issuing a debit memo to travel agencies for the fare difference and collecting the amount due in full. United Airlines operates more than 1,900 flights a day on a route network that spans the globe. News releases and other information about United Airlines can be found at the company’s website at www.united.com.
no comment untill now