Air Travel

Question:

> WHere is BlackAcre?

Presumably where he always was.  He has posted several times here lately under his own name but mainly hangs out in r.t.australia-nz.

Response:

And could somebody explain the "what does gas cost in your area" phrase that keeps popping up? * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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> Well, my first posts (of the archives I keep) started in 1992.  But my > archives do have holes in them (having been migrated from one machine to > another to another). > As confirmed by Ash on his CD archive.

There were a few posts by Helen but her signature line was quite menacing, so I did not reproduce any of her old posts > How far back does DejaNews keep records?

1995 (in the searches I have done, anyway).

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> > point for you.  From what I can remember, Mark Roger was the first > person (with some credibilities) to have praised you in this group. > You say that SR-111 was the turning point for me. Nop. All the ridiculing > stopped almost at the same time as RNA left and that was well before SR-111. > Beleive me, I remember.

And you stayed and grew roots!  ;) > You may call me childish at the time, but I just did not beleive all the urban > legends about Airbus because they were not backed by facts or provided in the > proper context.

Well, you are a James Bond believer. > Oh, and then there was that airline employee who blasted me for not knowing > anything and stating categorically that "add on fares" never existed. Never > did get an apology for that one when I presented him with proof that they > exist.

Everyone has feelings. That’s why you never got an apology I think. > I could go on and on and on. It is past, closed, but not forgotten.

First blood is near! > Some people choose to ridicule you when you question their opinion. And some > people are more professional and will explain their rposition in better terms.

Hey, this is usenet. Don’t you just love it?  ;) — Weiyun [Remove the obvious for email replies]

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>You have become much more reasonable and matured in the past >few years.

WHere is BlackAcre? -Erik

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> point for you.  From what I can remember, Mark Roger was the first > person (with some credibilities) to have praised you in this group.

No, but certaintly debunked many of the myths about Airbus planes, myths, which, when I questioned them, was ridiculed by the old-timers. These quys made accusations about Airbus computers that were untrue. And they have yet to provide facts that the A320 is more dangerous because it doesn’t allow the pilot to exceed the limits imposed by the computer. Perhaps comparing hwo many Gs the plane allows you to make is a better metric than simply stating that because the computer doesn’t allow you to exceed its own value, the plane is dangerous. Funny, I never heard complaints about the 737 being so dangerous because the elevator has arbritarily set physical limits preventing you from pulling the number of Gs you’d want to recover from a difficult situation. You say that SR-111 was the turning point for me. Nop. All the ridiculing stopped almost at the same time as RNA left and that was well before SR-111. Beleive me, I remember. You may call me childish at the time, but I just did not beleive all the urban legends about Airbus because they were not backed by facts or provided in the proper context. Sure, the computer will prevent you from stalling the aircraft. Woopty doo. Another example of the computer preventing the pilot from doing what he wants to do. But i was ridiculed because they thought that such an arbritrary restriction by the airbus computers was dangerous, and I just did not blindly beleive them. I was also ridiculed because I did not agree with one airline’s decision to leave passengers stranded on the tarmac without food and was told by all those experts that it was legally impossible to send any catering truck to an aircraft on an active taxiway. Yet, Southwest managed to do that to their passengers by having pizzas delivered. Instead of asking how Southwest managed to accomplish that, they concentrated on ridiculing me. Oh, and then there was that airline employee who blasted me for not knowing anything and stating categorically that "add on fares" never existed. Never did get an apology for that one when I presented him with proof that they exist. I could go on and on and on. It is past, closed, but not forgotten. Some people choose to ridicule you when you question their opinion. And some people are more professional and will explain their rposition in better terms.

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> Oh, and then there was that airline employee who blasted me for not knowing > anything and stating categorically that "add on fares" never existed. Never > did get an apology for that one when I presented him with proof that they > exist. > I could go on and on and on. It is past, closed, but not forgotten.

Just remember, J.F., there are many folks out there who are sore "losers". I find it helpful to always keep in mind that as strong an opinion as one has, that it is always useful to keep at least a grain of the opinion open to questioning. That’s what academia taught me: to learn how to be forthright about one’s opinion and to hold that opinion, yet still realise that there could be better views. After all, that’s the only way that one can take in criticism and truly consider them without being felt one is personally attacked or feeling hurt by it. In academia, there is criticism galore. Folks might think usenet is bad…try academia C

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> > RNA doesn’t fly with an airline, but I won’t say what he *does* do. I’ve > met RNA, way back when he was at Stanford. > When he left rta and mtai he had explained where he was going and that he had > been instructed by his new employer not to participate in these groups > anymore. He had posted elsewhere after though. > After his departure, airbus debates became much more humane. And I certaintly > would not be surprised if he had been the target of the rumoured Airbus legal > letters.

Nope.  It was against Boeing and Boeing employee(s). > Since he made a point of ridiculing me at every opportunity, it is no secret > that I did not shed any tears when he departed.

You have become much more reasonable and matured in the past few years.  Your initial participation in r.t.a., s.a.a., and m.t.a-i were quite childish and ridiculous.  I didn’t shed any tears when people (not just RNA) ridiculed you, because you asked for it.  Nevertheless, I do believe everyone has the right to say what he or she wants to say. Therefore, I did ask the m.t.a-i moderators not to ban you when RNA proposed to ban you.  I would say the SR111 crash was the turning point for you.  From what I can remember, Mark Roger was the first person (with some credibilities) to have praised you in this group.

Response:

> >> > > Who were the first rta’ers? >> > Robert N Ashcroft was one of the more famous ones. >> So which airline did he fly with? Where is he now? > RNA doesn’t fly with an airline, but I won’t say what he *does* do. I’ve > met RNA, way back when he was at Stanford.

Well, Robert just recently changed jobs, although he is still in the same building in New York.  I got email from him as recently as this morning, and had lunch with him in New York in March. > Anyone remember the mysterious and secretive M Carling?  He flew about > several million miles, and would surface in various parts of the world. > I’ve met him also, so he’s not that secretive. He tells some great > stories about his travels, including the time when he got to *give* the > safety briefing on a UA Shuttle flight. The flight attendant told him > he shouldn’t be pointing at the exit with one finger…

I wouldn’t mind if I didn’t meet M again. > Karl Swartz is another one. He runs sci.aeronautics.airliners, which has > been (understandably) quiet of late, as KLS prepares for his > wedding. But he’s been posting to the air-related groups for ages. I > first met KLS in June of 1992, and r.t.a was up and running then.

He was supposed to have more time beginning this month, but from appearances, that’s not happening.  I’m supposed to teach him how to fly if either of us can ever find the time… –Mark Rogers

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>> RNA doesn’t fly with an airline, but I won’t say what he *does* do. I’ve > met RNA, way back when he was at Stanford. > After his departure, airbus debates became much more humane. And I > certaintly would not be surprised if he had been the target of the > rumoured Airbus legal letters. He most certaintly had made factual > accusations aginst Airbus, accusatiosn which were later proven to be > wrong by Airbus pilot(s).

Nice try, but you’re wrong. –Helen

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> Who dropped the first post?

Leo Dauer whining that he blew an FA ‘cattle call’ interview because all women are evil… Before you buy.

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> > > > Who were the first rta’ers? > > Robert N Ashcroft was one of the more famous ones. > So which airline did he fly with? Where is he now? > Anyone remember the mysterious and secretive M Carling?  He flew about > several million miles, and would surface in various parts of the world. > And where is Malc these days?!  He really seemed to have a knowledgeble > perspective on things.

Yes, I remember those names too. Maybe they got bored with us?  ;) — Weiyun [Remove the obvious for email replies]

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> RNA doesn’t fly with an airline, but I won’t say what he *does* do. I’ve > met RNA, way back when he was at Stanford.

When he left rta and mtai he had explained where he was going and that he had been instructed by his new employer not to participate in these groups anymore. He had posted elsewhere after though. After his departure, airbus debates became much more humane. And I certaintly would not be surprised if he had been the target of the rumoured Airbus legal letters. He most certaintly had made factual accusations aginst Airbus, accusatiosn which were later proven to be wrong by Airbus pilot(s). Since he made a point of ridiculing me at every opportunity, it is no secret that I did not shed any tears when he departed.

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> > Who dropped the first post? > Leo Dauer whining that he blew an FA ‘cattle call’ interview because all > women are evil… >

Only because Priceline wasn’t around. LOL Michael

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> > > Who were the first rta’ers? > Robert N Ashcroft was one of the more famous ones. > So which airline did he fly with? Where is he now?

Anyone remember the mysterious and secretive M Carling?  He flew about several million miles, and would surface in various parts of the world. And where is Malc these days?!  He really seemed to have a knowledgeble perspective on things. Before you buy.

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>> > > Who were the first rta’ers? > > Robert N Ashcroft was one of the more famous ones. > So which airline did he fly with? Where is he now?

RNA doesn’t fly with an airline, but I won’t say what he *does* do. I’ve met RNA, way back when he was at Stanford. > Anyone remember the mysterious and secretive M Carling?  He flew about > several million miles, and would surface in various parts of the world.

I’ve met him also, so he’s not that secretive. He tells some great stories about his travels, including the time when he got to *give* the safety briefing on a UA Shuttle flight. The flight attendant told him he shouldn’t be pointing at the exit with one finger… > And where is Malc these days?!  He really seemed to have a knowledgeble > perspective on things.

He’s around, just not in r.t.a. You’ll see him in the UK-specific air groups (alt.travel.uk.air, uk.transport.air) as well as misc.transport.air-industry Karl Swartz is another one. He runs sci.aeronautics.airliners, which has been (understandably) quiet of late, as KLS prepares for his wedding. But he’s been posting to the air-related groups for ages. I first met KLS in June of 1992, and r.t.a was up and running then. –Helen

Response:

> > Anyone been here that long? I am sure the answers are all in the living > history… > When was this group started? > Well, my first posts (of the archives I keep) started in 1992.  But my > archives do have holes in them (having been migrated from one machine to > another to another). > I ran the vote for rec.travel.marketplace later in 1992 and the purpose > of that was to take the pressure off of rec.travel.air and rec.travel

As confirmed by Ash on his CD archive. > Who were the first rta’ers? > Robert N Ashcroft was one of the more famous ones.

So which airline did he fly with? Where is he now? > Who dropped the first post? > That’s a matter of debate that you can take up with DejaNews.

How far back does DejaNews keep records? > Anyone senior enough to have answers to these? > I suspect that would be me.

Hat off to you!  ;) — Weiyun [Remove the obvious for email replies]

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> Anyone been here that long? I am sure the answers are all in the > living history… > When was this group started?

Well, my first posts (of the archives I keep) started in early 1992. But my archives do have holes in them (having been migrated from one machine to another to another). It couldn’t have been any earlier than mid-1991, however. I ran the vote for rec.travel.marketplace later in 1992 and the purpose of that was to take the pressure off of rec.travel.air and rec.travel > Who were the first rta’ers?

Robert N Ashcroft was one of the more famous ones. > Who dropped the first post?

That’s a matter of debate that you can take up with DejaNews. > Any definable periods in the history of this group?

Not really. The same threads tend to rotate. > Anyone senior enough to have answers to these?

I suspect that would be me. –Helen

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> Anyone been here that long? I am sure the answers are all in the living > history… > When was this group started?

Well, my first posts (of the archives I keep) started in 1992.  But my archives do have holes in them (having been migrated from one machine to another to another). I ran the vote for rec.travel.marketplace later in 1992 and the purpose of that was to take the pressure off of rec.travel.air and rec.travel > Who were the first rta’ers?

Robert N Ashcroft was one of the more famous ones. > Who dropped the first post?

That’s a matter of debate that you can take up with DejaNews. > Any definable periods in the history of this group?

Not really. The same threads tend to rotate. > Anyone senior enough to have answers to these?

I suspect that would be me. –Helen

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> LOL… Where the heck did you find that one? Did you archive all those > Usenet items? > In those days a couple of companies tried to collate all Usenet posts on a CD > and you got one each fortnight.  All I got was a freebie review copy, as the > subscription was quite dear.  It’s in Unix LF format and I had to add the CRs > to > copy it here. > Back then, our feed was on a 2400 bps modem, so a partial feed of 700 > newsgroups > took 9 hours at work.  By comparison, one of these US CDs was like a treasure > trove.  Today, our site gets about 15 GB every day — certainly several > hundred > thousand articles daily.  I don’t think anyone makes Usenet CDs these days.

Amazing. Care to find some flame wars of those days and post them here? That’ll be a nice bait and see who gets sucked into it.  ;) — Weiyun [Remove the obvious for email replies]

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> I have been on Usenet since 1987 but the oldest messages I have are a CD

I meant "the oldest RTA messages that I have are on a CD-ROM…"  I flew overseas about once or twice a year then so I was mostly a lurker.

Response:

> LOL… Where the heck did you find that one? Did you archive all those > Usenet items?

In those days a couple of companies tried to collate all Usenet posts on a CD and you got one each fortnight.  All I got was a freebie review copy, as the subscription was quite dear.  It’s in Unix LF format and I had to add the CRs to copy it here. Back then, our feed was on a 2400 bps modem, so a partial feed of 700 newsgroups took 9 hours at work.  By comparison, one of these US CDs was like a treasure trove.  Today, our site gets about 15 GB every day — certainly several hundred thousand articles daily.  I don’t think anyone makes Usenet CDs these days.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anyone been here that long? I am sure the answers are all in the living > history… > When was this group started? > Who were the first rta’ers? > I have been on Usenet since 1987 but the oldest messages I have are a CD from > May 1992 when there were less than 300 posts in a fortnight.  (Usenet was much > more manageable then)  I wouldn’t be surprised if it predates 1987.  Somewhere > there is an archive of newsgroup charters and that would be definitive. > Names of recent rta posters that I recognise in that archive include: > * Ed Suranyi > * Helen Trillian Rose > Subject lines are pretty similar to those today, but the language was quite > restrained e.g. > Newsgroups: rec.travel.air > Path: > sparky!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!torsqnt!geac!torag!robohack!telly !ev > an > Organization: Somewhere just far enough out of Toronto > Lines: 138

LOL… Where the heck did you find that one? Did you archive all those Usenet items? One thing different. They sure had more time to spend on each one of their post with that 138 line post. It’s more like a trip report. I guess they don’t have as much distractions from the rest of the usenet, net as we do now.  ;) — Weiyun [Remove the obvious for email replies]

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Anyone been here that long? I am sure the answers are all in the living history… When was this group started? Who were the first rta’ers? Who dropped the first post? Any definable periods in the history of this group? Anyone senior enough to have answers to these? — Weiyun [Remove the obvious for email replies]

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> Anyone been here that long? I am sure the answers are all in the living > history… > When was this group started? > Who were the first rta’ers?

I have been on Usenet since 1987 but the oldest messages I have are a CD from May 1992 when there were less than 300 posts in a fortnight.  (Usenet was much more manageable then)  I wouldn’t be surprised if it predates 1987.  Somewhere there is an archive of newsgroup charters and that would be definitive. Names of recent rta posters that I recognise in that archive include: * Ed Suranyi * Helen Trillian Rose Subject lines are pretty similar to those today, but the language was quite restrained e.g. Newsgroups: rec.travel.air Path: sparky!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!torsqnt!geac!torag!robohack!telly !evan Organization: Somewhere just far enough out of Toronto Lines: 138 >For a US airline using US-registered aircraft, claiming to be a >"flag carrier" is stating the obvious. Using it in advertising or >promotion is likely just an appeal to use US carriers on international >flights, rather than to support those foreign airlines. >It’s no different than a campaign to buy American cars, and no >less xenophobic. >I always felt it was more in the vein of "flag ship," rather than simply >air carrier.  Since most airlines are owned, or at least heavily subsidized, >by their governments, this means something.  Thus, El Al is Israel’s >"flag carrier," Air India is India’s "flag carrier," etc.  Even with "privat- >ized" airlines–BA, Air France, etc–we all know who’s going to be backing >them up, if they fall on their faces.

I don’t think I’d agree that any country necessarily has only one "flag carrier". At least most of the G7 countries have more than one international carrier, though the pressure of economics, not politics, may change that. I think that there’s a strong case to be made for calling British Caledonian, or even Virgin, a British "flag carrier", just as other airlines such as Canadian International and Sterling have the right to be called "flag carriers" for their countries as well. >For many years, Pan Am was indisputably >the US’s "flag carrier," by virtue of its legendary international presence >and influence (perhaps "legendary" is entirely appropriate here, since it >hasn’t been a major player since the 1960’s ).

It depends where you were going. If you were travelling to Rome, Athens, or Tel Aviv, TWA was way ahead and considered the main "flag carrier" to those cities. Pan Am flew to more places than any other single US airline, but it was not necessarily the market leader on those routes where it had US competition (from TWA, Eastern, or Northwest-Orient). >But it’s nonsensical to call an airline operating in a free-market environ- >ment a "flag carrier," since there’s no government involvement in its fi- >nancing.  Thus, the United States is probably the only country in the world >without an airline *truly* meriting the distinction.

Then any airline which uses the term does so as no more than a marketing gimmick, and why I believe it’s used in a context of xenophobia. See below. >And lo and behold, after writing the above, I looked up the term in >Jane’s Aerospace Dictionary: > 1.  Airline designated as part of bilateral agreement to fly > international routes.

By this definition, any airline with negotiated international routes applies. >IMHO, it’s a prestige designation, nothing more, nothing less.  It is hardly >"xenophobic."

This is why I used that term: Since, as you correctly point out, no *one* US airline can claim to be any more or less of a flag carrier than its international competitors, why use the designation? In marketing babble, it’s merely a euphamism for "Buy American", which translates here into Fly American (not AA specifically, but to give preference when flying abroad to the US carrier(s) over the airline(s) carrying the flag of your destination. Though it is far more subtle, and far less aggressive, this is merely another part of what is perceived to be a state of xenophobia in the US. Whether it’s  taking sledgehammers to Japanese cars, taxing Canadian beer out of the US market, or subtly campaigning against foreign air carriers by "waving the flag", the appearence is the same. This is certainly a bit of a tangent, but I just wanted to point out that using the term "flag carrier" in this context, has a *very* specific purpose, even if its real definition in the US is foggy and worthless. >But there’s always been an attempt to separate this from >political activism (hence, for instance, Syria being granted landing rights >at JFK, at the same time it was a wildly destabilizing influence in the >Middle East, in the late 1970’s).

Don’t believe that stuff like this didn’t happen because of diplomatic arm twisting. *Nothing* like this is — or ever has been — immune from politics. How many countries have at one time or another denied El Al or SAA landing (or even fly-over) rights? Is the "flag carrier" of Vietnam currently allowed to land in the US? Don’t you remember how many flights were cut to Beijing after Tiennemen Square? >There’s some degree of concern that the air embargo on Libya’s airline could >change all this, reduce air travel to the same trade-negotiating level as, >say, cotton.  A recent editorial in FLIGHT INTERNATIONAL queries >why we’re cutting this vein prematurely, when we’re not attacking their >lifeline, oil.  The FLIGHT editorial sees it as a disturbing precedent, >should it continue.  Think what you will, it’s food for thought.

Fast food at best. The precedents have been set long ago. Air links are a perfectly legitimate part of what a country would consider its diplomatic tools. Besides, it’s a moot point — since there are few or no Tripoli–JFK nonstops, all Libya needs is service to *one* European capitol, the other world carriers would provide the connections, and most travellers wouldn’t notice a thing. >The AMERICAN carriers, on the other hand, most of which have rather grubby, >non-altruistic pasts, to say the least, firmly rooted in a tradition of >domestic in-fighting, simply attempt to borrow the pizzazz the term "flag >carrier" conveys.

But calling a US airline a "flag carrier" means nothing when competing against the other US international carriers, since they’re all "flag carriers" too. It only has meaning when implying a "don’t fly with them foreigners, fly with the Stars and Stripes" message. We all know the American flag is a very important icon, as witnessed by the extreme reactions not long ago to some who wanted to burn US flags as a manner of expression. It’s an emotioanl icon, and using the flag is an emotionally charged way of getting people to choose an airline. Right now it’s subtle, one day it may not be. >Apparently without reckoning on the perspectives of people >American ike Evan.

They don’t care about me anyway. I don’t give a damn about flag waving. For any given flight, I’ll take the airline with the best combination of convenience, price, and quality of service. Regardless of which passports are held by the crew. The flag they carry could be the skull and crossbones for all I care, if they meet the other criteria. —  Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software Ltd., located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario Sunday In Ontario: you can lose your shirt gambling, but you can’t buy a new one

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