Question:

> That settles it, next time I will drive to Oz.

To their car free cities?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >      Is going away? Here’s the proof. >      WORLD PAYS HEAVY PRICE FOR GLOBAL AIRLINE BOOM > Reuters, 24 May 2004 >  Sydney – In Sydney airport’s crowded international terminal, > passengers make last-minute passport checks or fret over toddlers in > pushchairs as they wait in the snaking queue to check in for the 23- > hour flight to London. >  But few of the 400 passengers crammed on to each jumbo jet taking off > over Botany Bay ever consider the environmental impact of their > 17,000-km (10,500-mile) intercontinental trip. >  Passengers will consume at least 1,600 meals in plastic containers, > but each plane travelling to London will guzzle more than 200 tonnes > of jet fuel and pump out more than 500 tonnes of carbon dioxide, as > well as other greenhouse gases.

That settles it, next time I will drive to Oz.

Response:

     Is going away? Here’s the proof.      WORLD PAYS HEAVY PRICE FOR GLOBAL AIRLINE BOOM Reuters, 24 May 2004  Sydney – In Sydney airport’s crowded international terminal, passengers make last-minute passport checks or fret over toddlers in pushchairs as they wait in the snaking queue to check in for the 23- hour flight to London.  But few of the 400 passengers crammed on to each jumbo jet taking off over Botany Bay ever consider the environmental impact of their 17,000-km (10,500-mile) intercontinental trip.  Passengers will consume at least 1,600 meals in plastic containers, but each plane travelling to London will guzzle more than 200 tonnes of jet fuel and pump out more than 500 tonnes of carbon dioxide, as well as other greenhouse gases.  "Beneath the glamorous high-flying image of aviation is a grossly polluting industry," said Paul de Zylva, head of Friends of the Earth in London.  Environmentalists say airlines rate as one of the most polluting forms of transport, with 16,000 commercial jets producing over 600 million tonnes of carbon dioxide every year.  Climate change, caused by greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide, is deemed by many experts to be the biggest long-term threat to mankind. They predict rapidly rising temperatures prompting higher sea levels, devastating floods and droughts.  The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change estimates aviation causes 3.5 per cent of man-made global warming and that figure could rise to 15 per cent by 2050.  NASA scientists say condensation trails from jet exhausts create cirrus clouds that may trap heat rising from the earth’s surface. This could account for nearly all the warming over the United States between 1975 and 1994.  And air travel is booming.  The International Air Transport Association (IATA), the body which represents the world’s airlines, accepts that aircraft cause environmental damage.  "Every minute we can save in flight times has a positive impact on the environment and on our costs," said IATA spokesman Anthony Concil.  Despite the industry’s heavy environmental toll, guidelines on international aircraft emissions were excluded from the Kyoto protocol on climate change and aviation fuel is tax exempt.  Aerospace firms have made huge leaps forward, with commercial jets now 70 per cent more fuel efficient per passenger kilometre (mile) than they were 40 years ago, thanks to better engines, lighter materials and aerodynamic designs.  And cost-obsessed carriers are continuously searching for ways to use capacity better, find more direct flight paths and cut congestion in order to trim the hefty fuel bills which make up 25 per cent of airline operating costs.  Most discount airlines have young, more fuel-efficient fleets and newer airlines in regions such as Asia have leap-frogged older technologies to buy new planes.  Dirt cheap airfares due to the runaway success of low-cost carriers mean thousands more people are now taking to the skies for short hops around Europe or the United States, and air travel is set to rocket in the fast-growing economies of Asia.  "It’s a Catch-22 situation, many developing countries want to promote tourism as a revenue source and a lot of no-frills airlines are appearing in Malaysia and other parts of Asia," said Gurmit Singh, executive director of Malaysia’s Centre of Environment Technology and Development.  "It’s one of the unsustainable forms of development that Asian countries are rushing into," Singh said.  The sheer growth of passenger volumes is likely to negate the benefits of future improvements, say environmentalists.  Simon Thomas, chairman of London-based environmental consultancy Trucost, estimates that technological improvements help trim emissions by around one per cent a year, a drop in the ocean when the aviation industry is forecasting five per cent annual traffic growth for the next two decades.  "That’s an enormous difference. It has the ability to completely undermine the Kyoto protocol," said Thomas.  Links between aviation and climate change have attracted widespread attention in Europe where environmental groups are calling for measures to curb the impact of airline emissions.  Environmental taxes, airline emissions trading or increased investment in high-speed rail networks are the most commonly touted methods to wean passengers from air travel.  But in North America, which makes up 40 per cent of world air travel, the issue has yet to make a big public impact and the environment remains low on the agenda in developing countries as they race for economic growth.  Air travel in China alone, which has the largest number of domestic and international scheduled passengers in the Asia-Pacific region, is forecast to leap over 200 per cent from nearly 67 million in 1999 to around 215 million in 2014.  The aviation industry opposes any new green taxes, saying many airlines are still in recovery mode. The world’s carriers lost some $30 billion in the years since the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States.  Instead of curbing damaging emissions, new levies would only bump up fares and damage low-cost carriers in particular, say aviation groups.  "Generally speaking, if you tax the airlines in a negative way, you’re removing our ability to reinvest in new technology," said IATA’s Concil.  But green initiatives such as global emissions trading schemes for airlines, under review in Europe, are gaining favour.  British Airways already participates in emissions trading and budget airline EasyJet said it would support any government moves towards an aviation emissions trading scheme. * * * (c) Reuters News Service 2003

Response:

Question:

Sunday morn, my spouse set off on a short notice (2 days) trip to Philly on a ticket paid for by my daughter’s emplyer…Mother’s Day away fringe benefit. Fares varied with routing and time en route from a low of $640 on a strange journey, 12 hours each way, (AA)ACT/DFW, (AA)DFW/MCO, (US)MCO/PHL and RTN by the same lines and timeframe.  She chose not to visit Florida… and purchase 2 tickets, one to an adjoining state or HOU, a second to PHL), Austin or Houston to depart. Her choice, one of the $1445 skeds so as not to abuse the buyer’s hospitality too much and the trip… DPT ACT 902A, AA(Eagle)3358, ARR DFW 957A DPT DFW 1105A, AA402, ARR PHL 318P DPT PHL 148P, AA471 (DFW stop 1.5 hours), ARR IAH 625P DPT IAH 725P, CO9545, ARR ACT 825P (a extra loop thrown in for sightseeing purposes I suppose…actually that AA – now competing with WN, PHL/Houston – charges less to fly PHL/IAH – even thru DFW – than PHL/DFW, so much more than it pays for more than a CO IAH/ACT one way, amusing but plumb ridiculous) On the return leg, guessing the answer, she asked the AA counter staff what it would cost to rework her ticket to debark at DFW and fly direct to ACT on AA, abandoning the DFW/IAH leg and the CO IAH/ACT hop. The answer (and not unexpected)….$440. additional At the same time, she was talking to AA on the phone, which would sell her a one way, DFW/ACT, for only $150.00 ($1.50 per mile), not realizing that she would be a "walk off" at DFW and a no show for the next two legs of her original ticket. She didn’t, but arrived home later, angry enough at AA not to use them for a couple of upcoming trips, convinced that AA should have offered her a "deal" no worse than she could make over the phone (and by employing a well-known and oft utilized form of cheating). Her question echoes the perspectives of thousands of travelers for who the major airlines’ claim to providing "customer service" rings pretty hollow much of the time…."Why ask?  They don’t offer any help when you do." TMO

Response:

> Sunday morn, my spouse set off on a short notice (2 days) trip to Philly on > a ticket paid for by my daughter’s emplyer…Mother’s Day away fringe > benefit. > Fares varied with routing and time en route from a low of $640 on a strange > journey, 12 hours each way, (AA)ACT/DFW, (AA)DFW/MCO, (US)MCO/PHL and RTN > by the same lines and timeframe.  She chose not to visit Florida… > and purchase 2 tickets, one to an adjoining state or HOU, a second to PHL), > Austin or Houston to depart.

Your spouse’s quest is a superb example of why the majors are losing customers in droves to airlines like Southwest and JetBlue. The fare schemes used by the majors are ABSURD and have been for many years. Will Southwest swing a deal with a regional so they can serve smaller cities like Waco? I bet they will in the not-to-distant future.

Response:

Quantum Foam Guy extrapolated from data available… > Your spouse’s quest is a superb example of why the majors are losing > customers in droves to airlines like Southwest and JetBlue. The fare > schemes used by the majors are ABSURD and have been for many years. > Will Southwest swing a deal with a regional so they can serve smaller > cities like Waco? I bet they will in the not-to-distant future.

No, smaller markets such as Waco, Bryan/College Station and Killeen simply don’t "fit" the WN business plan, although WN pulls many travelers who drive to the nearest WN service.  The majors use contract commters to serve   the small markets because they can adjust seat availability and flight intervals at much lower cost.  While AA and CO likely lose money on what they pay to the contractors or owned subsidiaries for hauling pax to/fm the little airports, their hope is to "make it up" in profits from the rest of the ticket. There used to be an interesting BSchool "problem" floating around down here, dating from the time when WN was about to move from serving only Dallas, Houston and san Antonio to some longer flights to distant cities. The premise, Greyhound, back then still healthy, "dicovers" a new discount airline and the two managements decide that air travel is in reality no different from bus travel, and that Greyhound will start special service from small cities (from non-traditional departure points, shopping center parking lots – close to where business and pleasure air travelers live) to major airports within 150 miles direct to the airline’s gates.  The one class from which I saw an analysis decided that even with 1974 gas prices, actually in real dollars higher than today’s, more people would rather drive, and that only a single joint ticket and combines fare, likely illegal for different common carriers of different modes under federal antitrust laws, would make a difference. TMO

Response:

Question:

> The F-100’s are not the F-28’s that are so noisy. The F-100’s are stage 3 > airplanes.  There a great airplane

Hushkitted DC9s are Stage 3 compliant but still very noisy, as are 737-200s and 727s. I’ve heard the AA F100s take off, are they are not a quiet plane by any means, even if they meet Stage 3. The BAe146s may have some financial disincentive due to their 4 engines but they are very quiet for a plane that age.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Those damned pesky planes are coming back. It is interesting that Jetsgo is >going after worthless discontinued planes (MD88 and now the pesky Fokker 100s) >while Westjet is ditching its old 727-200s and going for new 737s. On the >other hand, Westjet has had to pull out of some routes because the 737 is too >big. So perhaps going for the Fokkers may allow Jetsgo to go where Westjet >won’t go. And it will compete head to head against AC’ flying skidoos. In >fairness, the Fokkers are 2-3 whereas the skidoos are 2-2 so if you omit noise >for a second, the Fokkers do provide a bigger cabin. But when you put the >noise back in, those Pesky fookers aren’t good. >Also, how long before those Fokkers are declared too noisy to continue to >operate in north america ? The big winner is probably AA which is getting some >cash when one would have expected AA would have had to pay someone to take the >Fokkers away. >Will Jetsgo be the only remaining pesky Fokker operator in the world ?

I don’t think noise will really be an issue. There’s still 727’s opertating out of alot of places here, along with F-28’s and 737-200’s. I hope this works out for them, but ultimately they’ll have to keep up the severely cut rate tickets for me to choose cramped, uncomfortable seats and lacklustre service instead of leather, TV’s(soon) and helpful staff at Westjet. I took Jetsgo to Halifax last year for 300 rtn including taxes, now it’s 260 each way before tax on Air Can and Westjet, if they can keep that up they’ll do well against the classier carriers. As a pilot trying to break into aviation up here, by the time Jetsgo takes delivery of all those planes they will need 100+ more pilots and that means more openings at the bottom. Any boost for Canadian aviation is good as far as I’m concerned. I don’t think a F-100 will be able to serve many routes that Westjet abandoned either, 105 seats vs 120 or something on the 737-200? They might be able to get in at a loss for the first little while and if passenger traffic #’s continue picking up it could become worthwhile down the line. Especially since Westjet seems to be moving on to bigger fish in the US.

Response:

> Will Jetsgo be the only remaining pesky Fokker operator in the world ?

it’s too bad there wasn’t much money in flying the Fokker DR-1’s, although at least one DR-1 pilot became famous.

Response:

> Also, how long before those Fokkers are declared too noisy to continue to > operate in north america ? > Will Jetsgo be the only remaining pesky Fokker operator in the world ?

Although I’m not sure I would _think_ that Europe has more strict noise regulations. And Jetsgo isn’t the only one operating Fokkers, there are several more airlines operating them (50/70/100), like Team Lufthansa, TAM, KLM, Avianca, Mexicana, LAER, Tyrolean/Austrian (Arrows), Luxair, VLM Airlines, Malev, Iberia Regional, Germania, BMI (or are they already fased out?), Helvetic, Montenegro Airlines, Malaysia Airlines, Mandarin Airlines and several other smaller airlines. And those are just the ones I saw right away by doing a quick search on  http://www.airliners.net  :-S  Maintenance is still being done by Stork(/KLM?). Greetz, *pompom*

Response:

Actually, the F-100 with RR Tay engines is remarkably quiet–perhaps the quietest of the current generation of transport planes. See the link below for a breakdown of current air carrier equipment: http://www.macavsat.org/noise_info/noise_book/appendix_d/ I think, JF, you should stop posting on subjects about which you know nothing. Clearly aviation is one of thost subjects.

Response:

The F-100’s are not the F-28’s that are so noisy. The F-100’s are stage 3 airplanes.  There a great airplane

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Those damned pesky planes are coming back. It is interesting that Jetsgo is > going after worthless discontinued planes (MD88 and now the pesky Fokker 100s) > while Westjet is ditching its old 727-200s and going for new 737s. On the > other hand, Westjet has had to pull out of some routes because the 737 is too > big. So perhaps going for the Fokkers may allow Jetsgo to go where Westjet > won’t go. And it will compete head to head against AC’ flying skidoos. In > fairness, the Fokkers are 2-3 whereas the skidoos are 2-2 so if you omit noise > for a second, the Fokkers do provide a bigger cabin. But when you put the > noise back in, those Pesky fookers aren’t good. > Also, how long before those Fokkers are declared too noisy to continue to > operate in north america ? The big winner is probably AA which is getting some > cash when one would have expected AA would have had to pay someone to take the > Fokkers away. > Will Jetsgo be the only remaining pesky Fokker operator in the world ? > MONTREAL, Feb 5 (Reuters) – Canadian discount airline Jetsgo said on Thursday > it will double its fleet by buying 18 used aircraft, putting itself on a > collision course with Air Canada and no-frills rival WestJet Airlines Ltd. in > the dogfight for passengers in Eastern Canada. > Jetsgo president and founder  Michel Leblanc is buying the  105-seat Fokker > 100 aircraft from  American Airlines and plans to start deploying them on > regional routes by the end of June. > That would come three months ahead of a similar expansion that Air Canada, the > country’s biggest airline, is planning with 90 new  regional jets it is buying > from Bombardier Inc. and Embraer SA(. >  "It’s a huge gamble, he is trying to preempt Air Canada’s strategy," said > Michael Carney, airline  specialist at the John Molson  School of Business of > Concordia  University in Montreal. >  Carney said privately-held Jetsgo’s rapid expansion is banking on an upturn > on the air travel market, which has been in a deep slump since 2001. > "People are betting that there is going to be an uptake, but it’s building way > ahead of increased demand in the market," he said. > Leblanc, a veteran airline entrepreneur, said he did not fear taking on > dominant Air Canada, boasting that no Canadian airline could fly passengers as > cheaply as his two-year-old Jetsgo. > Montreal-based Air Canada, which carries about two-thirds of Canadian domestic > traffic, is trying to cut costs while restructuring under bankruptcy protection. > "Is there too much low-cost capacity? I don’t think so. We are selling all the > capacity we can add," Leblanc said. > Leblanc intends to fill Jetsgo’s planes by continuing to offer aggressive seat > sales, such as recent C$20 one-way fares. > That kind of price-cutting drew complaints from the president of Calgary-based > WestJet, Clive Beddoe, who has accused Leblanc of hurting the whole airline > industry with irrational pricing. > "We are not ashamed of offering promotional fares, it’s part of our business > and that’s what customers want," Leblanc said. > LOWEST COSTS IN CANADA > WestJet is also planning an expansion into Canada’s busiest routes between > Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. Earlier this week, WestJet also announced its > first scheduled flights to the United States. > Jetsgo already flies to six U.S. cities and expects to add destinations this year. > "We are profitable, but if Mr. Beddoe cannot produce at the seat-mile cost > that we can, well that’s his issue, not mine," Leblanc said. > He refused to disclose how much he paid for the Fokkers bought from American > Airlines. He said Jetsgo paid cash for the first seven planes, which will be > delivered immediately. The 11 remaining aircraft will be delivered in the next > six to 18 months > "We got a great deal for the aircraft," he said. > "Even though we are introducing a second aircraft type into our fleet, we will > maintain the same low seat-mile cost." > Jetsgo plans to hire 650 new employees, which should bring its total workforce > to around 1,300. > Leblanc said the company was looking for "upbeat, joyous personnel" to fit in > with its culture, symbolized by the green smiley face painted on its planes. > New flight attendants start with a salary of between C$20,000 and C$25,000, > while starting pilots earn between C$65,000 and C$70,000. > That’s well below pay scales offered by traditional full-service airlines, but > an essential ingredient of the financial success of discount airlines.

Response:

Those damned pesky planes are coming back. It is interesting that Jetsgo is going after worthless discontinued planes (MD88 and now the pesky Fokker 100s) while Westjet is ditching its old 727-200s and going for new 737s. On the other hand, Westjet has had to pull out of some routes because the 737 is too big. So perhaps going for the Fokkers may allow Jetsgo to go where Westjet won’t go. And it will compete head to head against AC’ flying skidoos. In fairness, the Fokkers are 2-3 whereas the skidoos are 2-2 so if you omit noise for a second, the Fokkers do provide a bigger cabin. But when you put the noise back in, those Pesky fookers aren’t good. Also, how long before those Fokkers are declared too noisy to continue to operate in north america ? The big winner is probably AA which is getting some cash when one would have expected AA would have had to pay someone to take the Fokkers away. Will Jetsgo be the only remaining pesky Fokker operator in the world ? MONTREAL, Feb 5 (Reuters) – Canadian discount airline Jetsgo said on Thursday it will double its fleet by buying 18 used aircraft, putting itself on a collision course with Air Canada and no-frills rival WestJet Airlines Ltd. in the dogfight for passengers in Eastern Canada. Jetsgo president and founder  Michel Leblanc is buying the  105-seat Fokker 100 aircraft from  American Airlines and plans to start deploying them on regional routes by the end of June. That would come three months ahead of a similar expansion that Air Canada, the country’s biggest airline, is planning with 90 new  regional jets it is buying from Bombardier Inc. and Embraer SA(.  "It’s a huge gamble, he is trying to preempt Air Canada’s strategy,"  said Michael Carney, airline  specialist at the John Molson  School of Business of Concordia  University in Montreal.  Carney said privately-held Jetsgo’s rapid expansion is banking on an upturn on the air travel market, which has been in a deep slump since 2001. "People are betting that there is going to be an uptake, but it’s building way ahead of increased demand in the market," he said. Leblanc, a veteran airline entrepreneur, said he did not fear taking on dominant Air Canada, boasting that no Canadian airline could fly passengers as cheaply as his two-year-old Jetsgo. Montreal-based Air Canada, which carries about two-thirds of Canadian domestic traffic, is trying to cut costs while restructuring under bankruptcy protection. "Is there too much low-cost capacity? I don’t think so. We are selling all the capacity we can add," Leblanc said. Leblanc intends to fill Jetsgo’s planes by continuing to offer aggressive seat sales, such as recent C$20 one-way fares. That kind of price-cutting drew complaints from the president of Calgary-based WestJet, Clive Beddoe, who has accused Leblanc of hurting the whole airline industry with irrational pricing. "We are not ashamed of offering promotional fares, it’s part of our business and that’s what customers want," Leblanc said. LOWEST COSTS IN CANADA WestJet is also planning an expansion into Canada’s busiest routes between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. Earlier this week, WestJet also announced its first scheduled flights to the United States. Jetsgo already flies to six U.S. cities and expects to add destinations this year. "We are profitable, but if Mr. Beddoe cannot produce at the seat-mile cost that we can, well that’s his issue, not mine," Leblanc said. He refused to disclose how much he paid for the Fokkers bought from American Airlines. He said Jetsgo paid cash for the first seven planes, which will be delivered immediately. The 11 remaining aircraft will be delivered in the next six to 18 months "We got a great deal for the aircraft," he said. "Even though we are introducing a second aircraft type into our fleet, we will maintain the same low seat-mile cost." Jetsgo plans to hire 650 new employees, which should bring its total workforce to around 1,300. Leblanc said the company was looking for "upbeat, joyous personnel" to fit in with its culture, symbolized by the green smiley face painted on its planes. New flight attendants start with a salary of between C$20,000 and C$25,000, while starting pilots earn between C$65,000 and C$70,000. That’s well below pay scales offered by traditional full-service airlines, but an essential ingredient of the financial success of discount airlines.

Response:

Question:

> Latest statistics show that passengers are not returning to air travel in > the numbers > that were anticipated by the airline industry after 11 September. > The big question is why not. Theories are being kicked around but nobody > seems > able to home in a definitive answer..

One possible factor compounding the decline in business travellers.   Death of the dot coms.  Not so many of these companies flush with cash from investors now.

Response:

> –  Don’t serve meals on shorter flights.  Instead, provide meal vouchers for > connecting passengers to eat at the connecting hub between flights.  Way > cheaper. > This sounds like a good idea to me.  (So long as connections allow, of > course.) > Ken Ishiguro > Take care > Jon

You probably heard AA is going to a "rolling" or "de-peaked" hub concept. Schedules have been chaged so aircraft arrive continuously but in smaller numbers, rather than in hourly "banks" to ease ground and airspace congestion.  However, connection times will be longer.  Serving on-ground meals will make the perceived wait shorter. Ken Ishiguro

Response:

>  Serving on-ground > meals will make the perceived wait shorter. > Ken Ishiguro

Wouldn’t it make sense that only passengers desiring meals actually pay for them, instead of the airline providing them.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Latest statistics show that passengers are not returning to air travel in > the numbers > that were anticipated by the airline industry after 11 September. > The big question is why not. Theories are being kicked around but nobody > seems > able to home in a definitive answer.. > May I ask those of you who have first hand experience of (frequent) air > travel > whether you can provide any clues ? > The sort of reasons I am hearing are: > -the 11 September effect still exists (people are more afraid of flying than > before) > -new security rules cause a lot of hassle and delays resulting in travellers > looking >     for alternative means of travel or even telephone calls/conferences

  It’s more than just security. Fewer direct flights means that the trip takes even longer.   > -fares are too high (but they have not gone up more since 11 September than > they >     did in other years) > -airlines going bankrupt or seeking Chapter 11 (advance bookings on a > carrier may >     not be honoured as the airline stops operating) > Any response would be very appreciated

    Travel was down even before 9/11.  The reasons only got worse afterwards. Travel has become more problematic because of increased hassles in getting on/to/from the airport including baggage screening hassles.   It was bad before 9/11, it got worse afterwards.  No on particularly enjoyed airline travel recently because of severely declining service. I personally haven’t reduced my travel, but then I wasn’t exactly a double super gold medallion type anyway.

Response:

Hassle. Surly service. Any trip under 1000 miles gets serious consideration as a driving trip for me.

Response:

Much more of a hassle than pre 9/11.  I travel from central California to San Diego several times a year, used to fly, but now, it is easier to drive the distance from my home (500 miles) when you take in the time factor of leaving the house, being at the airport at least 1 1/2 hours before flight, the hassle at the airport getting luggage, etc. and the airlines make you feel like they did you a favor by allowing you on their plane.

Response:

I think WN is a good example of what is going on…. WN always considered their competition the car, not other airlines.  Until a few years ago, their routes were short-haul, and their fares were low enough to make people fly instead of driving.  Post 9/11 security hassles have made short trips favorable the car.  I don’t have any numbers, but I would bet WN’s short haul leisure traffic is way down. Fortunately, WN has diversified into longer haul routes and does compete with other airlines.  As other posts in this thread have said, the definition of "full service" is continuing to decay, while WN just keeps their standards where they’ve always been.  That makes it just a price game which WN usually wins. Also, others have identified the fact that companies are looking very hard at their travel budgets.  I know my employer has greatly reduced travel and replaced it with conference calls, field reps, and consolidation of several trips into one. BTW, a few more obvious things the majors are missing: –  Instead of locating hubs at already busy or poor-weather airports (DFW, ORD, SFO), airlines should build "wayports" for the sole purpose of a hub. They would be located based on route structures and weather, not proximity to a major city.  Land would be cheap (there are many big, mostly unused WW2 airfields across the country), and rural areas would probably welcome the economic boost. –  Don’t serve meals on shorter flights.  Instead, provide meal vouchers for connecting passengers to eat at the connecting hub between flights.  Way cheaper. Ken Ishiguro

Response:

> –  Don’t serve meals on shorter flights.  Instead, provide meal vouchers for > connecting passengers to eat at the connecting hub between flights.  Way > cheaper.

This sounds like a good idea to me.  (So long as connections allow, of course.) > Ken Ishiguro

Take care Jon — Jon Beasley-Murray                 Literature Program, Duke University               Spanish and Portuguese Studies, University of Manchester

Response:

Latest statistics show that passengers are not returning to air travel in the numbers that were anticipated by the airline industry after 11 September. The big question is why not. Theories are being kicked around but nobody seems able to home in a definitive answer.. May I ask those of you who have first hand experience of (frequent) air travel whether you can provide any clues ? The sort of reasons I am hearing are: -the 11 September effect still exists (people are more afraid of flying than before) -new security rules cause a lot of hassle and delays resulting in travellers looking     for alternative means of travel or even telephone calls/conferences -fares are too high (but they have not gone up more since 11 September than they     did in other years) -airlines going bankrupt or seeking Chapter 11 (advance bookings on a carrier may     not be honoured as the airline stops operating) Any response would be very appreciated Kind regards                         Tony

Response:

> Latest statistics show that passengers are not returning to air travel in > the numbers > that were anticipated by the airline industry after 11 September. > The big question is why not. Theories are being kicked around but nobody > seems > able to home in a definitive answer.. > May I ask those of you who have first hand experience of (frequent) air > travel > whether you can provide any clues ?

IMHO, the answer is so obvious, it is incredible that the airlines haven’t figured it out.  The bottom line is that air travel was soft even before 9-11, because the airlines became so greedy as to eliminate the "value" equation.  In other words, the service has to be worth the price.  That does not mean that an airline has to offer no-frills prices with full-frills service, but it does mean that (1) the customer is ALWAYS the customer – not necessarily always right, but ALWAYS PAYING YOUR SALARY; (2) You don’t eliminate service (whether meals, luggage allowances, seat assignment, etc.) and raise fares (despite what the airlines are bitching about, the so-called "bargain fares" have so many restrictions that they are not easily secured – even Southwest’s discount fares are difficult to qualify for; (3) business fares have no business averaging 6 times the cost of leisure fares; and (4) bitching that fares are lower than they would have been under regulation is a lie – study after study has shown that fares were going down before deregulation (remember National Airlines’ no-frills fares on the east coast and Texas International’s "Peanuts" fares)? Bottom line:  The airlines need to go back to what American Airlines (and I’m no fan of theirs) tried to do several years ago – reduce the number of fares to a reasonable level – a "fair" business/walk-up fare for first class, a "fair" business/walk-up fare for economy, and a couple of advance purchase (non-refundable) fares, maybe 1, 2, or 3 weeks out.  Additionally, the time may be right for a third class of service on domestic flights – between first class and economy, so that travelers willing to pay a bit more than coach can still get adequate legroom, a meal (if you’re flying, say, from Salt Lake City to Miami via Dallas on American, you can be going 6 hours without anything to eat), etc.  United and Pan American used to do this between Hawaii and the U.S. West Coast, with three classes of service – the "coach" passengers sat closer to the galley, and received meal service; the "economy/thrift" passengers did not.  In short, if the passenger has the option of going "no-frills," and waiving seat selection, frequent flyer miles, etc., that should be an option.  If a passenger is willing to pay a nominal additional cost for these features, let him. The problem today is that the airlines have forgotten the "service" aspect of their business.  And because of the hub-and-spoke nature of the current business, there are many monopoly routes today so you really don’t have any choices for nonstops (although you can usually route yourself through a competitor’s own fortress hub). Personally, I blame Jimmy Carter and Alfred Kahn, but that’s another story Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The sort of reasons I am hearing are: > -the 11 September effect still exists (people are more afraid of flying than > before) > -new security rules cause a lot of hassle and delays resulting in travellers > looking >     for alternative means of travel or even telephone calls/conferences > -fares are too high (but they have not gone up more since 11 September than > they >     did in other years) > -airlines going bankrupt or seeking Chapter 11 (advance bookings on a > carrier may >     not be honoured as the airline stops operating) > Any response would be very appreciated > Kind regards >                         Tony

Response:

Question:

>         But because SJC and OAK have less problem with fog than SFO, Southwest > can keep their plane turnaround rate up.

It would be interesting to see how Southwest would react if it was the more expensive airport that had the lesser delays, and the cheaper airport had consistently longer turn around times.

Response:

> >Why quote 374 lines just to add 2? > I’m quoting these few lines >Based in sunnier San Jose, Southwest suffered fewer costly >delays, allowing it to make the most of the quick turnarounds at the >gate on which the airline and its workers pride themselves. > That’s San Jose, Texas, I assume?

No, they were referring to where WN’s Bay Area ops are centered…but they are still wrong! Southwest has nearly double the number of daily departures from OAK as from SJC. Idiot news media…yet again!

Response:

>>Based in sunnier San Jose, Southwest suffered fewer costly >delays, allowing it to make the most of the quick turnarounds at the >gate on which the airline and its workers pride themselves. >That’s San Jose, Texas, I assume?

        No, that’s SJC, San Jose CA. Southwest based most of its Bay Area operations there instead of at SFO. Then they ramped up OAK and eventually cut SFO entirely out of the picture. It’s not like SFO is actually any closer or more conveient to San Francisco than OAK is — they share the same public transport system more or less, and are both about the same distance away from downtown.         But because SJC and OAK have less problem with fog than SFO, Southwest can keep their plane turnaround rate up. — Joe

Response:

> Why quote 374 lines just to add 2?

Why quote 376 to add 1? miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu New mini photo-feature: Life in DC: http://travel.u.nu/dc/

Response:

>Why quote 374 lines just to add 2?

I’m quoting these few lines >Based in sunnier San Jose, Southwest suffered fewer costly >delays, allowing it to make the most of the quick turnarounds at the >gate on which the airline and its workers pride themselves.

That’s San Jose, Texas, I assume?

Response:

> [Lengthy article concerning the current state of America's airlines and

You could really stand a lesson on cutting and editing.... Rich -- Visit America's Aviation Headquarters: www.usaviation.com

Response:

Why quote 374 lines just to add 2?

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> [Lengthy article concerning the current state of America's airlines and > the status of the flying public.  Thought it worth posting to elicit > responses from the group.] > Troubled Airlines Face Reality: Those Cheap Fares Have a Price > Sun Aug 18, 9:30 AM ET > By DAVID LEONHARDT with MICHELINE MAYNARD The New York Times > After seething in airport lines and fidgeting on delayed flights, > Americans are unlikely to think of the last decade as a golden age of > air travel. Soon, however, a little nostalgia may begin to set in. > For all their frustrations with stingier services, millions of travelers > still count on full-fare convenience at no-frills prices. But with > businesses unwilling to pay the high fares that have subsidized leisure > fliers, and the Internet giving travelers new tools to find bargains, > that formula is giving way. > Now, suffering their worst financial losses ever, the nation’s biggest > carriers through bankruptcy filings, broad restructurings or more subtle > responses to the stark moves of their sickest competitors plan to start > bringing service more closely in line with their fares. > They will make travel less convenient for business fliers by cutting > flights and lengthening connection times at some hubs. They also hope to > exact more of a sacrifice from people flying on the most heavily > discounted tickets, with ever more spartan cabin service. > If that sounds like Southwest Airlines, it is because the industry’s > giants are trying to keep pace with Southwest, whose profitability amid > their losses has earned it a stock market value bigger than all its > rivals’ combined. > Southwest is still down about 30% recently.  No airline is immune to the > Bush market crash > Frank Matthews > "The marketplace has changed; we haven’t changed," said Gordon M. > Bethune, the chief executive of Continental Airlines. "We may be > starting to." > US Airways, battered by the growth of low-fare service on its > once-lucrative East Coast routes, filed for bankruptcy protection last > Sunday, saying it would eliminate many flights. American Airlines said > on Tuesday that it would lay off 7,000 workers and alter its schedules > to minimize the time planes sit idle, at the cost of longer waits for > passengers. United Airlines on Wednesday threatened to seek bankruptcy > protection later this year, if its unions do not agree to deep wage > cuts. > Crisis has come to the nation’s airlines before, of course. They lost > billions of dollars in the recessions of the early 1980’s and 90’s. But > the frustrations and fear created by Sept. 11 have affected travel far > more than a downturn alone, and the six biggest carriers American, > United, Delta Air Lines, Northwest Airlines, Continental and US Airways > collectively lost a record $6.9 billion from October through June. > Since the government deregulated air travel in 1978, the big carriers > have repeatedly defied predictions of their demise, in the process > outlasting upstarts from People Express to Pro Air that were expected to > slay them. > Likewise, the significance of the current overhauls could be diluted by, > among other things, the industry’s powerful unions, an unexpectedly > strong economic recovery or a slowing of growth at Southwest, the > discount carrier now in 30 states. One or more of the big carriers, > angling to gain market share, might resist the push to curtail service > and amenities. > Still, most executives and analysts say the airline business cannot > continue in its current form for long. The steady advance of Southwest > and its ilk, including JetBlue in New York, has destroyed the giant > carriers’ profits on many routes they once dominated. The Internet, > meanwhile, lets business and leisure travelers alike tinker with > itineraries and reduce fares by hundreds of dollars. Neither of those > forces is likely to recede when the economy recovers. > This leaves the traditional airlines with the biggest fleets and > broadest networks calculating ways to deliver service that is less > expensive than today’s, yet just superior enough to that of the low-fare > airlines to justify higher prices. > "People would like to be able to have assigned seats and convenient > schedules with Southwest prices," said Alfred E. Kahn, the economist who > oversaw deregulation as the final chairman of the Civil Aeronautics > Board. That was possible, he said, during the boom of the 1990’s, when > the economy grew so quickly that business travelers would pay almost any > fare. > In today’s economy, he added, "that just can’t be done." > Test Market > Discounters Deflect California Challenge > In the busy passageways of San Francisco International Airport about > five years ago, United then the world’s largest airline seemed to have > devised an effective response to Southwest’s juggernaut. > Shuttle by United, a service exclusively for the West Coast, attracted > thousands of dot-com pioneers, corporate executives and other travelers > who wanted both cheap fares and the convenience of a global carrier. > Between 1994, when Shuttle began, and 1997, United’s share of the air > travel market within California shot up to 29 percent from 22 percent, > according to Back Aviation Solutions, a research firm in New Haven. > Southwest’s share slipped to 54 percent from 56 percent. > Yet like almost every other attempt by a major airline to mimic the > discounters, United’s succeeded only briefly. > The airline had chosen San Francisco as Shuttle’s Northern California > base, despite the fog that frequently slowed operations at the airport, > because it is a hub for United flights to Asia and around the United > States. Based in sunnier San Jose, Southwest suffered fewer costly > delays, allowing it to make the most of the quick turnarounds at the > gate on which the airline and its workers pride themselves. > As with its costs, the fares at Southwest remained lower over all. So > when the slumping economy slowed traffic growth in 2000, Southwest > reasserted its dominance. Its share of the California market reached a > record 63 percent last year, and United’s share fell to 19 percent as > the bigger airline, losing more money than any other after Sept. 11, > sharply reduced service. > Since another California airline, Pacific Southwest Airlines, began > offering low fares in 1949 it cost $5.65 to fly from San Diego to > Oakland back then the state’s skies have followed a similar storyline. > Discounters suffer defeats, and even disappear. (P.S.A. was absorbed by > what then was called US Air in 1988.) But over the long haul, they > succeed in destroying the fat profit margins of full-service airlines. > In the last 15 years, the inflation-adjusted price of an average ticket > within California has fallen 31 percent, to $79.48, according to Back. > Indeed, for many travelers, the best part of the discount airlines is > not having to fly them in order to enjoy their benefits. > "I think Southwest is terrific," said Lisa Ackerly, 42, a marketing > executive from Half Moon Bay, Calif., 29 miles from the San Francisco > airport, who travels twice a month to the Los Angeles headquarters of > her employer,  Edmunds.com, an information service for car buyers. "I > wish I had invested in them." > Nonetheless, Ms. Ackerly prefers to fly out of San Jose on American, > whose fares are competitive with those of Southwest. On American, she > earns frequent-flier miles that can lead to a free ticket overseas or a > first-class upgrade. > Low-fare airlines have begun cutting into the big airlines’ business on > longer routes, as well. The two-year-old JetBlue flies from Kennedy > International in New York to Oakland and, in Southern California, to > Ontario and Long Beach. Its fares are as low as $99 each way > cross-country. On Sept. 15, Southwest will start flying from Baltimore > to Los Angeles, opening its first coast-to-coast route. > "With the huge numbers of people residing in the California cities, you > get the right price in there and you can fill up the airplane," said > Richard Sweet, executive director of sales and marketing for Southwest. > Fare Shopping > Even Corporations Want Bargains Now > These days, many airports look a lot like those in California, which was > long considered an island of airline competition in a sea of > oligopolies, where one or two big carriers dominated. Southwest flies to > 58 cities, JetBlue flies to 19, and both have invaded the once-expensive > airports of New England and New York State. > Spirit Airlines has made such inroads in Detroit that Northwest will > match its $154 round trip to La Guardia Airport starting Sept. 3. > Northwest’s current fare, with no advance purchase requirement, is $318. > The growth of discount carriers is the primary reason that the average > price to fly a mile fell 25 percent, adjusting for inflation, from 1991 > to last year. > Unable to raise the prices they charged leisure travelers for fares > booked well in advance, the biggest carriers have instead stretched the > gap between restricted fares and the last-minute tickets purchased by > businesspeople. Many companies simply paid the bill, and their employees > got on the plane. > "In the roaring 90’s, when business was good, it cost you $1,200 to fly > out to the West Coast $2,400 round trip and you didn’t think twice about > it," said Dave

… read more »

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [Lengthy article concerning the current state of America's airlines and > the status of the flying public.  Thought it worth posting to elicit > responses from the group.] > Troubled Airlines Face Reality: Those Cheap Fares Have a Price > Sun Aug 18, 9:30 AM ET > By DAVID LEONHARDT with MICHELINE MAYNARD The New York Times > After seething in airport lines and fidgeting on delayed flights, > Americans are unlikely to think of the last decade as a golden age of > air travel. Soon, however, a little nostalgia may begin to set in. > For all their frustrations with stingier services, millions of travelers > still count on full-fare convenience at no-frills prices. But with > businesses unwilling to pay the high fares that have subsidized leisure > fliers, and the Internet giving travelers new tools to find bargains, > that formula is giving way. > Now, suffering their worst financial losses ever, the nation’s biggest > carriers through bankruptcy filings, broad restructurings or more subtle > responses to the stark moves of their sickest competitors plan to start > bringing service more closely in line with their fares. > They will make travel less convenient for business fliers by cutting > flights and lengthening connection times at some hubs. They also hope to > exact more of a sacrifice from people flying on the most heavily > discounted tickets, with ever more spartan cabin service. > If that sounds like Southwest Airlines, it is because the industry’s > giants are trying to keep pace with Southwest, whose profitability amid > their losses has earned it a stock market value bigger than all its > rivals’ combined.

Southwest is still down about 30% recently.  No airline is immune to the Bush market crash Frank Matthews – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "The marketplace has changed; we haven’t changed," said Gordon M. > Bethune, the chief executive of Continental Airlines. "We may be > starting to." > US Airways, battered by the growth of low-fare service on its > once-lucrative East Coast routes, filed for bankruptcy protection last > Sunday, saying it would eliminate many flights. American Airlines said > on Tuesday that it would lay off 7,000 workers and alter its schedules > to minimize the time planes sit idle, at the cost of longer waits for > passengers. United Airlines on Wednesday threatened to seek bankruptcy > protection later this year, if its unions do not agree to deep wage > cuts. > Crisis has come to the nation’s airlines before, of course. They lost > billions of dollars in the recessions of the early 1980’s and 90’s. But > the frustrations and fear created by Sept. 11 have affected travel far > more than a downturn alone, and the six biggest carriers American, > United, Delta Air Lines, Northwest Airlines, Continental and US Airways > collectively lost a record $6.9 billion from October through June. > Since the government deregulated air travel in 1978, the big carriers > have repeatedly defied predictions of their demise, in the process > outlasting upstarts from People Express to Pro Air that were expected to > slay them. > Likewise, the significance of the current overhauls could be diluted by, > among other things, the industry’s powerful unions, an unexpectedly > strong economic recovery or a slowing of growth at Southwest, the > discount carrier now in 30 states. One or more of the big carriers, > angling to gain market share, might resist the push to curtail service > and amenities. > Still, most executives and analysts say the airline business cannot > continue in its current form for long. The steady advance of Southwest > and its ilk, including JetBlue in New York, has destroyed the giant > carriers’ profits on many routes they once dominated. The Internet, > meanwhile, lets business and leisure travelers alike tinker with > itineraries and reduce fares by hundreds of dollars. Neither of those > forces is likely to recede when the economy recovers. > This leaves the traditional airlines with the biggest fleets and > broadest networks calculating ways to deliver service that is less > expensive than today’s, yet just superior enough to that of the low-fare > airlines to justify higher prices. > "People would like to be able to have assigned seats and convenient > schedules with Southwest prices," said Alfred E. Kahn, the economist who > oversaw deregulation as the final chairman of the Civil Aeronautics > Board. That was possible, he said, during the boom of the 1990’s, when > the economy grew so quickly that business travelers would pay almost any > fare. > In today’s economy, he added, "that just can’t be done." > Test Market > Discounters Deflect California Challenge > In the busy passageways of San Francisco International Airport about > five years ago, United then the world’s largest airline seemed to have > devised an effective response to Southwest’s juggernaut. > Shuttle by United, a service exclusively for the West Coast, attracted > thousands of dot-com pioneers, corporate executives and other travelers > who wanted both cheap fares and the convenience of a global carrier. > Between 1994, when Shuttle began, and 1997, United’s share of the air > travel market within California shot up to 29 percent from 22 percent, > according to Back Aviation Solutions, a research firm in New Haven. > Southwest’s share slipped to 54 percent from 56 percent. > Yet like almost every other attempt by a major airline to mimic the > discounters, United’s succeeded only briefly. > The airline had chosen San Francisco as Shuttle’s Northern California > base, despite the fog that frequently slowed operations at the airport, > because it is a hub for United flights to Asia and around the United > States. Based in sunnier San Jose, Southwest suffered fewer costly > delays, allowing it to make the most of the quick turnarounds at the > gate on which the airline and its workers pride themselves. > As with its costs, the fares at Southwest remained lower over all. So > when the slumping economy slowed traffic growth in 2000, Southwest > reasserted its dominance. Its share of the California market reached a > record 63 percent last year, and United’s share fell to 19 percent as > the bigger airline, losing more money than any other after Sept. 11, > sharply reduced service. > Since another California airline, Pacific Southwest Airlines, began > offering low fares in 1949 it cost $5.65 to fly from San Diego to > Oakland back then the state’s skies have followed a similar storyline. > Discounters suffer defeats, and even disappear. (P.S.A. was absorbed by > what then was called US Air in 1988.) But over the long haul, they > succeed in destroying the fat profit margins of full-service airlines. > In the last 15 years, the inflation-adjusted price of an average ticket > within California has fallen 31 percent, to $79.48, according to Back. > Indeed, for many travelers, the best part of the discount airlines is > not having to fly them in order to enjoy their benefits. > "I think Southwest is terrific," said Lisa Ackerly, 42, a marketing > executive from Half Moon Bay, Calif., 29 miles from the San Francisco > airport, who travels twice a month to the Los Angeles headquarters of > her employer,  Edmunds.com, an information service for car buyers. "I > wish I had invested in them." > Nonetheless, Ms. Ackerly prefers to fly out of San Jose on American, > whose fares are competitive with those of Southwest. On American, she > earns frequent-flier miles that can lead to a free ticket overseas or a > first-class upgrade. > Low-fare airlines have begun cutting into the big airlines’ business on > longer routes, as well. The two-year-old JetBlue flies from Kennedy > International in New York to Oakland and, in Southern California, to > Ontario and Long Beach. Its fares are as low as $99 each way > cross-country. On Sept. 15, Southwest will start flying from Baltimore > to Los Angeles, opening its first coast-to-coast route. > "With the huge numbers of people residing in the California cities, you > get the right price in there and you can fill up the airplane," said > Richard Sweet, executive director of sales and marketing for Southwest. > Fare Shopping > Even Corporations Want Bargains Now > These days, many airports look a lot like those in California, which was > long considered an island of airline competition in a sea of > oligopolies, where one or two big carriers dominated. Southwest flies to > 58 cities, JetBlue flies to 19, and both have invaded the once-expensive > airports of New England and New York State. > Spirit Airlines has made such inroads in Detroit that Northwest will > match its $154 round trip to La Guardia Airport starting Sept. 3. > Northwest’s current fare, with no advance purchase requirement, is $318. > The growth of discount carriers is the primary reason that the average > price to fly a mile fell 25 percent, adjusting for inflation, from 1991 > to last year. > Unable to raise the prices they charged leisure travelers for fares > booked well in advance, the biggest carriers have instead stretched the > gap between restricted fares and the last-minute tickets purchased by > businesspeople. Many companies simply paid the bill, and their employees > got on the plane. > "In the roaring 90’s, when business was good, it cost you $1,200 to fly > out to the West Coast $2,400 round trip and you didn’t think twice about > it," said Dave Barger, the president of JetBlue. > But while business fares were rising, the Internet was beginning to give > companies technological power to match what the airlines had been using > against them since the 1980’s. Yield-management systems had helped the > carriers figure out the maximum they could charge each flier. > Priceline.com, Expedia, Travelocity and other Web sites helped companies > determine the minimum they could spend on a ticket by leaving a little

… read more »

Response:

[Lengthy article concerning the current state of America's airlines and the status of the flying public.  Thought it worth posting to elicit responses from the group.] Troubled Airlines Face Reality: Those Cheap Fares Have a Price Sun Aug 18, 9:30 AM ET By DAVID LEONHARDT with MICHELINE MAYNARD The New York Times After seething in airport lines and fidgeting on delayed flights, Americans are unlikely to think of the last decade as a golden age of air travel. Soon, however, a little nostalgia may begin to set in. For all their frustrations with stingier services, millions of travelers still count on full-fare convenience at no-frills prices. But with businesses unwilling to pay the high fares that have subsidized leisure fliers, and the Internet giving travelers new tools to find bargains, that formula is giving way. Now, suffering their worst financial losses ever, the nation’s biggest carriers through bankruptcy filings, broad restructurings or more subtle responses to the stark moves of their sickest competitors plan to start bringing service more closely in line with their fares. They will make travel less convenient for business fliers by cutting flights and lengthening connection times at some hubs. They also hope to exact more of a sacrifice from people flying on the most heavily discounted tickets, with ever more spartan cabin service. If that sounds like Southwest Airlines, it is because the industry’s giants are trying to keep pace with Southwest, whose profitability amid their losses has earned it a stock market value bigger than all its rivals’ combined. "The marketplace has changed; we haven’t changed," said Gordon M. Bethune, the chief executive of Continental Airlines. "We may be starting to." US Airways, battered by the growth of low-fare service on its once-lucrative East Coast routes, filed for bankruptcy protection last Sunday, saying it would eliminate many flights. American Airlines said on Tuesday that it would lay off 7,000 workers and alter its schedules to minimize the time planes sit idle, at the cost of longer waits for passengers. United Airlines on Wednesday threatened to seek bankruptcy protection later this year, if its unions do not agree to deep wage cuts. Crisis has come to the nation’s airlines before, of course. They lost billions of dollars in the recessions of the early 1980’s and 90’s. But the frustrations and fear created by Sept. 11 have affected travel far more than a downturn alone, and the six biggest carriers American, United, Delta Air Lines, Northwest Airlines, Continental and US Airways collectively lost a record $6.9 billion from October through June. Since the government deregulated air travel in 1978, the big carriers have repeatedly defied predictions of their demise, in the process outlasting upstarts from People Express to Pro Air that were expected to slay them. Likewise, the significance of the current overhauls could be diluted by, among other things, the industry’s powerful unions, an unexpectedly strong economic recovery or a slowing of growth at Southwest, the discount carrier now in 30 states. One or more of the big carriers, angling to gain market share, might resist the push to curtail service and amenities. Still, most executives and analysts say the airline business cannot continue in its current form for long. The steady advance of Southwest and its ilk, including JetBlue in New York, has destroyed the giant carriers’ profits on many routes they once dominated. The Internet, meanwhile, lets business and leisure travelers alike tinker with itineraries and reduce fares by hundreds of dollars. Neither of those forces is likely to recede when the economy recovers. This leaves the traditional airlines with the biggest fleets and broadest networks calculating ways to deliver service that is less expensive than today’s, yet just superior enough to that of the low-fare airlines to justify higher prices. "People would like to be able to have assigned seats and convenient schedules with Southwest prices," said Alfred E. Kahn, the economist who oversaw deregulation as the final chairman of the Civil Aeronautics Board. That was possible, he said, during the boom of the 1990’s, when the economy grew so quickly that business travelers would pay almost any fare. In today’s economy, he added, "that just can’t be done." Test Market Discounters Deflect California Challenge In the busy passageways of San Francisco International Airport about five years ago, United then the world’s largest airline seemed to have devised an effective response to Southwest’s juggernaut. Shuttle by United, a service exclusively for the West Coast, attracted thousands of dot-com pioneers, corporate executives and other travelers who wanted both cheap fares and the convenience of a global carrier. Between 1994, when Shuttle began, and 1997, United’s share of the air travel market within California shot up to 29 percent from 22 percent, according to Back Aviation Solutions, a research firm in New Haven. Southwest’s share slipped to 54 percent from 56 percent. Yet like almost every other attempt by a major airline to mimic the discounters, United’s succeeded only briefly. The airline had chosen San Francisco as Shuttle’s Northern California base, despite the fog that frequently slowed operations at the airport, because it is a hub for United flights to Asia and around the United States. Based in sunnier San Jose, Southwest suffered fewer costly delays, allowing it to make the most of the quick turnarounds at the gate on which the airline and its workers pride themselves. As with its costs, the fares at Southwest remained lower over all. So when the slumping economy slowed traffic growth in 2000, Southwest reasserted its dominance. Its share of the California market reached a record 63 percent last year, and United’s share fell to 19 percent as the bigger airline, losing more money than any other after Sept. 11, sharply reduced service. Since another California airline, Pacific Southwest Airlines, began offering low fares in 1949 it cost $5.65 to fly from San Diego to Oakland back then the state’s skies have followed a similar storyline. Discounters suffer defeats, and even disappear. (P.S.A. was absorbed by what then was called US Air in 1988.) But over the long haul, they succeed in destroying the fat profit margins of full-service airlines. In the last 15 years, the inflation-adjusted price of an average ticket within California has fallen 31 percent, to $79.48, according to Back. Indeed, for many travelers, the best part of the discount airlines is not having to fly them in order to enjoy their benefits. "I think Southwest is terrific," said Lisa Ackerly, 42, a marketing executive from Half Moon Bay, Calif., 29 miles from the San Francisco airport, who travels twice a month to the Los Angeles headquarters of her employer,  Edmunds.com, an information service for car buyers. "I wish I had invested in them." Nonetheless, Ms. Ackerly prefers to fly out of San Jose on American, whose fares are competitive with those of Southwest. On American, she earns frequent-flier miles that can lead to a free ticket overseas or a first-class upgrade. Low-fare airlines have begun cutting into the big airlines’ business on longer routes, as well. The two-year-old JetBlue flies from Kennedy International in New York to Oakland and, in Southern California, to Ontario and Long Beach. Its fares are as low as $99 each way cross-country. On Sept. 15, Southwest will start flying from Baltimore to Los Angeles, opening its first coast-to-coast route. "With the huge numbers of people residing in the California cities, you get the right price in there and you can fill up the airplane," said Richard Sweet, executive director of sales and marketing for Southwest. Fare Shopping Even Corporations Want Bargains Now These days, many airports look a lot like those in California, which was long considered an island of airline competition in a sea of oligopolies, where one or two big carriers dominated. Southwest flies to 58 cities, JetBlue flies to 19, and both have invaded the once-expensive airports of New England and New York State. Spirit Airlines has made such inroads in Detroit that Northwest will match its $154 round trip to La Guardia Airport starting Sept. 3. Northwest’s current fare, with no advance purchase requirement, is $318. The growth of discount carriers is the primary reason that the average price to fly a mile fell 25 percent, adjusting for inflation, from 1991 to last year. Unable to raise the prices they charged leisure travelers for fares booked well in advance, the biggest carriers have instead stretched the gap between restricted fares and the last-minute tickets purchased by businesspeople. Many companies simply paid the bill, and their employees got on the plane. "In the roaring 90’s, when business was good, it cost you $1,200 to fly out to the West Coast $2,400 round trip and you didn’t think twice about it," said Dave Barger, the president of JetBlue. But while business fares were rising, the Internet was beginning to give companies technological power to match what the airlines had been using against them since the 1980’s. Yield-management systems had helped the carriers figure out the maximum they could charge each flier. Priceline.com, Expedia, Travelocity and other Web sites helped companies determine the minimum they could spend on a ticket by leaving a little later, for example, or using an alternate airport served by a discount carrier. "Overnight, the airlines lost control of their product," said Cameron Burr, a partner at the Burr Group, a private equity firm in New Canaan, Conn., that invests in aviation, and a son of a founder of People Express. "People can game the system." Mr. Bethune, Continental’s chief executive, said, "They can do things they weren’t even aware of a few years ago." When the economy slowed in 2000, airline executives … read more »

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Hi:  I need to by a ticket between JNB and CPT.  Does anyone know a >> discount agency or a good source to check.  Thank You >As far as I remember the cheapest fares JNB/CPT are on >"Kulula.com" Airlines, they operate 2 or 3 daily flights. >Equipment are 2 B727-200 (ex. TC-RAC and OK-JGY) . >They do not deal with T/Agents but favour direct contact >on their Web site.  (www.kulula.com… I assume????). >paul e/uk

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> Hi:  I need to by a ticket between JNB and CPT.  Does anyone know a >>> discount agency or a good source to check.  Thank You >As far as I remember the cheapest fares JNB/CPT are on >"Kulula.com" Airlines, they operate 2 or 3 daily flights. >Equipment are 2 B727-200 (ex. TC-RAC and OK-JGY) . >They do not deal with T/Agents but favour direct contact >on their Web site.  (www.kulula.com… I assume????). >paul e/uk

ps. their Web site address is correct, FYI they operate 5 flights daily.

Response:

Hi:  I need to by a ticket between JNB and CPT.  Does anyone know a discount agency or a good source to check.  Thank You

Response:

nationwideair.co.za 11-327-3000 saexpress.co.za 11-978-5577 — Air Travel Center over the web at: airtravelcenter.com over the air at: airtravelcenter.ch voice over the wires at: 1-800-931-7222 1-717-732-7222 fax over the wires at: 1-717-728-1269 electronic mail at: mail over land at: 1 East Manor Avenue (rear bldg) Enola, Pa. US  17025-2822

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi:  I need to by a ticket between JNB and CPT.  Does anyone know a > discount agency or a good source to check.  Thank You

Response:

Question:

Ach, I find ATC very inoffensive.  He/she/it does not spam–rather, replies to queries, offering possibilities that people can follow up as and when they wish to do so.  OK, so he makes a mistake.  Big deal. Take care Jon > I think ‘Air Travel Centre’ (aka Always Travels Carelessly) is not on the > same page as everyone else. Go back to doing whatever it was before you > bumbled your way into the travel industry. Myself, Mr Travel & Sjoerd (who > are NOT travel agents) managed to find the correct info, so why can’t you ? > Good riddance, you inept fool.

Jon Beasley-Murray Literature Program Duke University (New Address:) Spanish and Portuguese Studies University of Manchester

Response:

> Sabre, Amadeus, and Worldspan all show non-stops between AMS and FRA to CPT > without passing through JNB at all

Name the airline and flight number of just 2 of them.

Response:

Ok, ATC I gave you another chance. The second flight listed was LH 572 Again, this stops in JNB before going to CPT Again easy to find on Travelocity. Choice 3 from you was LHR-CPT on South Afican.. I give you that one.. It shows in Travelocity as non stop. But, the old thing about SVO-ATL on LH, you were wrong. You should have known it stopped in Frankfurt. So, you posted 3 "non stop" flights and got only 1 right.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Amsterdam (AMS) – Cape Town (CPT) > 21.00 – 30 MAY 2002 10.50 – 31 MAY 2002 > Klm Royal Dutch Airlines 0593 > So you think this is a non stop from AMS to CPT > You fail on the first one, easily FOUND in Travelocity > It shows > LV AMS 2100 > AR JNB 0740 > LV JNB 0840 > AR CPT 1050 > I am not going to bother looking up the rest > It is a waste of time. > Bye

I think ‘Air Travel Centre’ (aka Always Travels Carelessly) is not on the same page as everyone else. Go back to doing whatever it was before you bumbled your way into the travel industry. Myself, Mr Travel & Sjoerd (who are NOT travel agents) managed to find the correct info, so why can’t you ? Good riddance, you inept fool.

Response:

> The original post was asking about advantages of flying > LAX-LON LON-CPT and we extended the options to include > AMS and FRA because airfare sales come along at the > same or even a higher frequency than for LAX- LON > Mr. Travel – the return leg from SVO-ATL

Who is talking about SVO – ATL? This discussion is about AMS – CPT. > Mixed in with all the excellent one-stops going from > AMS,

So why are you talking about non-stops between AMS and CPT? > FRA, and LON to CPT are the following flights > that have no stops indicated and sufficient flight duration > to reach CPT from the respective airports: > Amsterdam (AMS) – Cape Town (CPT) > 21.00 – 30 MAY 2002 10.50 – 31 MAY 2002 > Klm Royal Dutch Airlines 0593

Well, the system where you found this is either wrong, or you don’t know how to use the system. > so it would appear that these examples of available > flights (near future) would be non-stop

But the AMS – CPT flight for one is NOT non-stop and you should have known. Any travel agent that would tell me: "Well, it would appear that there are no flights between ABC and XYZ"  looses my business. > our response to the original post was indended to be > helpful to that person

But it was not as you gave wrong information. > and it would be appreciated by > many persons if all this effort to ridicule us were devoted > to providing helpful answers to posted questions

Which we do without posting our contact details. Why don’t you stop using this ng as an advertising medium? Sjoerd

Response:

> Amsterdam (AMS) – Cape Town (CPT) > 21.00 – 30 MAY 2002 10.50 – 31 MAY 2002 > Klm Royal Dutch Airlines 0593

So you think this is a non stop from AMS to CPT You fail on the first one, easily FOUND in Travelocity It shows LV AMS 2100 AR JNB 0740 LV JNB 0840 AR CPT 1050 I am not going to bother looking up the rest It is a waste of time. Bye

Response:

The original post was asking about advantages of flying LAX-LON LON-CPT and we extended the options to include AMS and FRA because airfare sales come along at the same or even a higher frequency than for LAX- LON Mr. Travel – the return leg from SVO-ATL was non-stop and available. We explained to you that we had just finished locating a non-stop SVO-JFK and saw the SVO-ATL non-stop and got direction temporarily mixed and didn’t see that the ATL-SVO was routed through FRA but it seems important to you that we appear inept so we’ll let that representation in your good care. Mixed in with all the excellent one-stops going from AMS, FRA, and LON to CPT are the following flights that have no stops indicated and sufficient flight duration to reach CPT from the respective airports: Amsterdam (AMS) – Cape Town (CPT) 21.00 – 30 MAY 2002 10.50 – 31 MAY 2002 Klm Royal Dutch Airlines 0593 Frankfurt Intl Cape Town Jun 1 10:40p 12:05p +1 Lufthansa LH 572 London (LHR) – Cape Town (CPT) 21.05 – 30 MAY 2002 09.35 – 31 MAY 2002 South African Airways 0221 so it would appear that these examples of available flights (near future) would be non-stop the original post was just looking for a possible price advantage and we extended the possibilities and based on near future, no strong advantage was readily apparent via LAX-LON LON-CPT so we pointed that out our response to the original post was indended to be helpful to that person and it would be appreciated by many persons if all this effort to ridicule us were devoted to providing helpful answers to posted questions we appreciate being corrected – we improve by that but ridicule doesn’t quite have the same good effect — Air Travel Center over the web at: airtravelcenter.com over the air at: airtravelcenter.ch voice over the wires at: 1-800-931-7222 1-717-732-7222 fax over the wires at: 1-717-728-1269 electronic mail at: mail over land at: 1 East Manor Avenue (rear bldg) Enola, Pa. US  17025-2822

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If ‘Air Travel Center’ is so sure that there is non-stop AMS-CPT, just post > the relevant flight details and we will eat humble pie. As already > mentioned, I did check Amadeus (just like you) and they show a stopover at > JNB. > You also claim that you "wanted to provide helpful > STILL happy you are not my travel agent. > How about this… If I am wrong, I promise never to become a travel > agent. If ATC is wrong, he promises to stop using his agency’s contact > info on this newsgroup > He was quick to reply that he was being wronged, but not so quick to > reply after being challenged to put up or shut up.

Response:

> If ‘Air Travel Center’ is so sure that there is non-stop AMS-CPT, just post > the relevant flight details and we will eat humble pie. As already > mentioned, I did check Amadeus (just like you) and they show a stopover at > JNB. > You also claim that you "wanted to provide helpful > STILL happy you are not my travel agent.

How about this… If I am wrong, I promise never to become a travel agent. If ATC is wrong, he promises to stop using his agency’s contact info on this newsgroup He was quick to reply that he was being wronged, but not so quick to reply after being challenged to put up or shut up.

Response:

If ‘Air Travel Center’ is so sure that there is non-stop AMS-CPT, just post the relevant flight details and we will eat humble pie. As already mentioned, I did check Amadeus (just like you) and they show a stopover at JNB. You also claim that you "wanted to provide helpful STILL happy you are not my travel agent.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Come on… If your goal was to simply help people without financial > gain, you wouldn’t post your agency contact info at the bottom of all > the posts. > So, please if there is actually a non stop flight, give us the flight > number and airline, because we don’t have it. And… forget the > consolidators for a minute… You stated you found it on Amadeus and > Worldspan. > and you should know that consolidators have a database of their own and you > should also take time to use Sabre, Amadeus, and Worldspan to check your > information before providing the original poster with unverified > information – or is it simply more important to insult someone who wanted > nothing more than to provide helpful information to a person who requested > it

Response:

Come on… If your goal was to simply help people without financial gain, you wouldn’t post your agency contact info at the bottom of all the posts. So, please if there is actually a non stop flight, give us the flight number and airline, because we don’t have it. And… forget the consolidators for a minute… You stated you found it on Amadeus and Worldspan. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > and you should know that consolidators have a database of their own and you > should also take time to use Sabre, Amadeus, and Worldspan to check your > information before providing the original poster with unverified > information – or is it simply more important to insult someone who wanted > nothing more than to provide helpful information to a person who requested > it

Response:

> and you should know that consolidators have a database of their own and you > should also take time to use Sabre, Amadeus, and Worldspan to check your > information before providing the original poster with unverified > information – or is it simply more important to insult someone who wanted > nothing more than to provide helpful information to a person who requested > it

FWIW, I can’t find a non-stop either, using several systems. Could you please post the information you have? (i.e. airline, dates etc.) Otherwise, everyone will just (correctly) assume that you’re bullshitting… David — David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk Composer in Association- RLPO david (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

Response:

and you should know that consolidators have a database of their own and you should also take time to use Sabre, Amadeus, and Worldspan to check your information before providing the original poster with unverified information – or is it simply more important to insult someone who wanted nothing more than to provide helpful information to a person who requested it — Air Travel Center over the web at: airtravelcenter.com over the air at: airtravelcenter.ch voice over the wires at: 1-800-931-7222 1-717-732-7222 fax over the wires at: 1-717-728-1269 electronic mail at: mail over land at: 1 East Manor Avenue (rear bldg) Enola, Pa. US  17025-2822

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Amadeus and Worldspan both show > non-stops currently available > why not dispute them? > A good travel agent has added-value compared to on-line systems. You > should have known about no non-stops being available between AMS and CPT > or stay out of this thread. > Sjoerd

Response:

> Amadeus and Worldspan both show > non-stops currently available > why not dispute them?

A good travel agent has added-value compared to on-line systems. You should have known about no non-stops being available between AMS and CPT or stay out of this thread. Sjoerd

Response:

> > Amadeus and Worldspan both show > non-stops currently available > why not dispute them? > A good travel agent has added-value compared to on-line systems. You > should have known about no non-stops being available between AMS and CPT > or stay out of this thread.

Being in the thread is one thing, but passing himself off as a TA is kind of a joke. (I am not a TA and can easily see there are not nonstops)

Response:

Sabre, Amadeus, and Worldspan all show non-stops between AMS and FRA to CPT without passing through JNB at all Consolidators also show non-stops AMS and FRA-CPT which will not display within the general CRS calls Most people who see a flight routed AMS-CPT or FRA-CPT discern a difference between those and XXX-JNB-CPT relieved you are not a customer — Air Travel Center over the web at: airtravelcenter.com over the air at: airtravelcenter.ch voice over the wires at: 1-800-931-7222 1-717-732-7222 fax over the wires at: 1-717-728-1269 electronic mail at: mail over land at: 1 East Manor Avenue (rear bldg) Enola, Pa. US  17025-2822 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My understanding (and that of Amadeus you mentioned) is that the daily > AMS-CPT flight KL593 is routed via JNB. Your system may show a single flight > number, but might not show the 1 stop on the way. It would certainly make > sense as per usual airline practices that KL would upload/download extra pax > on the way through – especially given that JNB is the major hub for regional > feeds in Southern Africa. From personal experiences, I know that LH, SQ & BA > regularly do similar ’scoops’ via JNB, CPT & DBN. > Relieved that you are not my travel agent. > > Would be happy for anyone to correct me if I am wrong. > Amadeus and Worldspan both show > non-stops currently available > why not dispute them? > — > Air Travel Center > over the web at: > airtravelcenter.com > over the air at: > airtravelcenter.ch > voice over the wires at: > 1-800-931-7222 > 1-717-732-7222 > fax over the wires at: > 1-717-728-1269 > electronic mail at: > mail over land at: > 1 East Manor Avenue (rear bldg) > Enola, Pa. US  17025-2822 > > > AMS or FRA seem better than LON > > > because of ># non-stops available to CPT > > Huh? There are 0 (zero) non-stops available from AMS to CPT. Only KLM > > flies between AMS and South Africa, and all flights stop in Johannesburg > > first before (some of them) continue to CPT. > > Sjoerd

Response:

My understanding (and that of Amadeus you mentioned) is that the daily AMS-CPT flight KL593 is routed via JNB. Your system may show a single flight number, but might not show the 1 stop on the way. It would certainly make sense as per usual airline practices that KL would upload/download extra pax on the way through – especially given that JNB is the major hub for regional feeds in Southern Africa. From personal experiences, I know that LH, SQ & BA regularly do similar ’scoops’ via JNB, CPT & DBN. Relieved that you are not my travel agent. Would be happy for anyone to correct me if I am wrong. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Amadeus and Worldspan both show > non-stops currently available > why not dispute them? > — > Air Travel Center > over the web at: > airtravelcenter.com > over the air at: > airtravelcenter.ch > voice over the wires at: > 1-800-931-7222 > 1-717-732-7222 > fax over the wires at: > 1-717-728-1269 > electronic mail at: > mail over land at: > 1 East Manor Avenue (rear bldg) > Enola, Pa. US  17025-2822 > > AMS or FRA seem better than LON > > because of ># non-stops available to CPT > Huh? There are 0 (zero) non-stops available from AMS to CPT. Only KLM > flies between AMS and South Africa, and all flights stop in Johannesburg > first before (some of them) continue to CPT. > Sjoerd

Response:

Amadeus and Worldspan both show non-stops currently available why not dispute them? — Air Travel Center over the web at: airtravelcenter.com over the air at: airtravelcenter.ch voice over the wires at: 1-800-931-7222 1-717-732-7222 fax over the wires at: 1-717-728-1269 electronic mail at: mail over land at: 1 East Manor Avenue (rear bldg) Enola, Pa. US  17025-2822

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > AMS or FRA seem better than LON > > because of ># non-stops available to CPT > Huh? There are 0 (zero) non-stops available from AMS to CPT. Only KLM > flies between AMS and South Africa, and all flights stop in Johannesburg > first before (some of them) continue to CPT. > Sjoerd > Sjoerd, > How often do you see them post accurate info? > They either post fares that anyone can get to easily, but still are not > the lowest fares you can get from going to normal site. They Posted > before about a ATL-SVO nonstop on LH.

Response:

Amadeus and Worldspan both show non-stops currently available why not dispute them? — Air Travel Center over the web at: airtravelcenter.com over the air at: airtravelcenter.ch voice over the wires at: 1-800-931-7222 1-717-732-7222 fax over the wires at: 1-717-728-1269 electronic mail at: mail over land at: 1 East Manor Avenue (rear bldg) Enola, Pa. US  17025-2822

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> AMS or FRA seem better than LON > because of ># non-stops available to CPT > Huh? There are 0 (zero) non-stops available from AMS to CPT. Only KLM > flies between AMS and South Africa, and all flights stop in Johannesburg > first before (some of them) continue to CPT. > Sjoerd

Response:

> Huh? There are 0 (zero) non-stops available from AMS to CPT. Only KLM > flies between AMS and South Africa, and all flights stop in Johannesburg > first before (some of them) continue to CPT.

Would Qantas offer something that is competitive ? LAX-SYD-CPT (with a stop at perth for refueling)

Response:

> > AMS or FRA seem better than LON > because of ># non-stops available to CPT > Huh? There are 0 (zero) non-stops available from AMS to CPT. Only KLM > flies between AMS and South Africa, and all flights stop in Johannesburg > first before (some of them) continue to CPT. > Sjoerd

Sjoerd, How often do you see them post accurate info? They either post fares that anyone can get to easily, but still are not the lowest fares you can get from going to normal site. They Posted before about a ATL-SVO nonstop on LH.

Response:

For info: I am an Aussie working in California USA who has travelled a number of times to CPT and JNB in the last few years. My options were either: 1. Head east LAX-ATL-CPT approx 19hrs flying time. The ATL-CPT non stop is operated by SA in a codeshare with DL. or 2. Head west against the prevailing winds LAX-SYD-JNB-CPT approx 31hrs flying time. Operated by QF except domestic JNB-CPT leg in Sth Africa. This includes 2 of the longest non-stop 747-400 services in the world and is NOT recommended. (I think QF094 from LAX-MEL at 15hrs 10min used to be the longest – may not be any longer). or 3. Via Europe LAX-LHR-CPT approx 22hrs  or   LAX-FRA-JNB-CPT approx 24hrs as both BA and LH have good access to Sth Africa. or 4. Stay at home. Guess it all depends on what you want to see on the way. Price wise, a round-the-world ticket may be the cheapest option. I have always found the Amadeus website (http://www.amadeus.net/home/index.htm) helpful in initial flight planning as it does not harass me for registration/booking/etc. Hope that helps, Andrew. P.S. – flying non-stop for 15hrs in economy/coach is only recommended for dwarfs or those with a death wish.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Huh? There are 0 (zero) non-stops available from AMS to CPT. Only KLM > flies between AMS and South Africa, and all flights stop in Johannesburg > first before (some of them) continue to CPT. > Would Qantas offer something that is competitive ? LAX-SYD-CPT (with a stop at > perth for refueling)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >    Long ago, I heard that one can get better/cheaper flights >out of London to Capetown, than trying to do it all from the U.S. >Dunno if those were apocryphal stories, or once valid, now no >longer? >    Is it, in fact, a good idea  to fly to London first and >buy separate ticket to Capetown? >     Is it necessary to buy separate ticket or can have long >stopover? >    Plus would be several fun days in London and environs. >    Minus would be (a lot) more expensive. >    Would appreciate referrals to best flights, and >especially any experience from Hon. Members who have done >LAX-Capetown, direct or with London stopovers of at least >a week. >    If not feasible w/stopover, buy separate R/T LAX-London, >and London-Capetown? >Many thanks in advance.

Capetown?  You’re going to South Africa now?  I thought it was Italy…no wait…the Falklands on a RAF flight…

Response:

AMS or FRA seem better than LON because of ># non-stops available to CPT (most flights are XXX-JNB-CPT) price wise – airfare sales LAX-AMS or FRA come along at a fair pace but that would offer the only appreciable discount compared to booking LAX-CPT return flights (based upon currently available flights) — Air Travel Center over the web at: airtravelcenter.com over the air at: airtravelcenter.ch voice over the wires at: 1-800-931-7222 1-717-732-7222 fax over the wires at: 1-717-728-1269 electronic mail at: mail over land at: 1 East Manor Avenue (rear bldg) Enola, Pa. US  17025-2822

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Long ago, I heard that one can get better/cheaper flights > out of London to Capetown, than trying to do it all from the U.S. > Dunno if those were apocryphal stories, or once valid, now no > longer? > Is it, in fact, a good idea  to fly to London first and > buy separate ticket to Capetown? > Is it necessary to buy separate ticket or can have long > stopover? > Plus would be several fun days in London and environs. > Minus would be (a lot) more expensive. > Would appreciate referrals to best flights, and > especially any experience from Hon. Members who have done > LAX-Capetown, direct or with London stopovers of at least > a week. > If not feasible w/stopover, buy separate R/T LAX-London, > and London-Capetown? > Many thanks in advance. > — > Polar > Email copies welcome

Response:

> AMS or FRA seem better than LON > because of ># non-stops available to CPT

Huh? There are 0 (zero) non-stops available from AMS to CPT. Only KLM flies between AMS and South Africa, and all flights stop in Johannesburg first before (some of them) continue to CPT. Sjoerd

Response:

        Long ago, I heard that one can get better/cheaper flights out of London to Capetown, than trying to do it all from the U.S. Dunno if those were apocryphal stories, or once valid, now no longer?         Is it, in fact, a good idea  to fly to London first and buy separate ticket to Capetown?          Is it necessary to buy separate ticket or can have long stopover?         Plus would be several fun days in London and environs.         Minus would be (a lot) more expensive.         Would appreciate referrals to best flights, and especially any experience from Hon. Members who have done LAX-Capetown, direct or with London stopovers of at least a week.         If not feasible w/stopover, buy separate R/T LAX-London, and London-Capetown? Many thanks in advance. — Polar Email copies welcome

Response:

Question:

Fly to all the world’s most exotic destinations for as little as  $99 to $200 round trip. Just act as an agent for air courier companies. Order our e-book for more information. www.courierflying.com

Response:

Ok. Tbilisi, Georgia is pretty exotic. I am in Reno. I’ll give you $200 right now for a RT ticket RNO-TBS. Trygve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Organization: Courier Flying International > Newsgroups: rec.travel.air > Fly to all the world’s most exotic destinations for as little as  $99 to > $200 round trip. Just act as an agent for air courier companies. Order our > e-book for more information. > www.courierflying.com

Response:

Question:

Hi- Im looking for help with summertime discount prices on air from Istanbul back to Germany, (one-way)… preferably Berlin, but Frankfurt would do as well. My choices seem to be Turkish Air, Czech Air and Azerbaijan Airlines but the cheapest fare is over $400 one way back to Berlin… but flights.com does not have detail flight info on the latter two and Turkish Air site will only display business class and only 3 months out ($700)… so I dont give much value to that $400 either. Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this trip… is this not realistic ? Thanx. jay Sun, Feb 10, 2002 — Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

> Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > trip… is this not realistic ?

Try telephoning the student travel (Travel CUTS, STA Travel, etc. – Council Travel if you’re desperate) agency affiliates on the ground in Turkey. They’ll speak English, are quite reliable, and will know about the various options better than anyone out of the country. They are able to sell non-student tickets. When in Turkey we were able to buy cheap last-minute one-ways from these places with ease. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

Response:

> > Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > trip… is this not realistic ? > Try telephoning the student travel (Travel CUTS, STA Travel, etc. – Council > Travel if you’re desperate) agency affiliates on the ground in Turkey. > They’ll speak English, are quite reliable, and will know about the various > options better than anyone out of the country. They are able to sell > non-student tickets. When in Turkey we were able to buy cheap last-minute > one-ways from these places with ease.

My biggest concern is that this is in August and while I have 6 days in IST, I have only given an overnight back in germany to catch a trans-Atlantic flight that is date fixed. The fares you were seeing were on scheduled flights or charters (that I cant search for) ? Did they also have cheap fares to Ephesus… on the Turkish air site its just over $200 return, not bad I guess really. thanx jay Sun, Feb 10, 2002 > miguel

– Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > > trip… is this not realistic ? > Try telephoning the student travel (Travel CUTS, STA Travel, etc. – Council > Travel if you’re desperate) agency affiliates on the ground in Turkey. > They’ll speak English, are quite reliable, and will know about the various > options better than anyone out of the country. They are able to sell > non-student tickets. When in Turkey we were able to buy cheap last-minute > one-ways from these places with ease. > My biggest concern is that this is in August and while I have 6 days in > IST, I have only given an overnight back in germany to catch a > trans-Atlantic flight that is date fixed. > The fares you were seeing were on scheduled flights or charters (that I > cant search for) ? > Did they also have cheap fares to Ephesus… on the Turkish air site its > just over $200 return, not bad I guess really.

I think you are asking a lot if you expect to book a ‘legal’ ticket from outside Turkey for this – realistically, the way you’ll travel for that kind of money is by buying a Sat night throw away locally (which will almost always be cheaper than one way). As an alternative to those the above, try Malev in Istanbul, who can be cheap for connections. Dont mention the ‘throw away’ bit, obviously, which I can’t condone or recommend and wouldn’t do myself etc etc Address: Elmadag Cumhuriyet Caddesi 141-147, Umac apt. Tel: (+90)(212)232 4839 Fax: (+90)(212) 230 2034

Response:

>> Try telephoning the student travel (Travel CUTS, STA Travel, etc. – Council > Travel if you’re desperate) agency affiliates on the ground in Turkey. > They’ll speak English, are quite reliable, and will know about the various > options better than anyone out of the country. They are able to sell > non-student tickets. When in Turkey we were able to buy cheap last-minute > one-ways from these places with ease. > My biggest concern is that this is in August and while I have 6 days in > IST, I have only given an overnight back in germany to catch a > trans-Atlantic flight that is date fixed.

By all means call them now (well, in about 10 hours). It costs 24 cents/minute to call Turkey with 1016868, so it won’t break the bank. > The fares you were seeing were on scheduled flights or charters (that I > cant search for) ?

We flew regular flights on Turk Hava Yollari or whatever Turkish Airways is called domestically. > Did they also have cheap fares to Ephesus… on the Turkish air site its > just over $200 return, not bad I guess really.

The most we paid was about $70 from Adana to Istanbul on the way back from Syria. That’s about 450 miles so if it’s any benchmark (I have no idea how fares are structured) you shouldn’t expect to be paying all that much. We took an overnight bus from Istanbul to Selcuk so don’t know about the fares for that. Also, we were there a couple years ago, so things may be different now. But it’s definitely worth making the phone call. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

Response:

> >> Try telephoning the student travel (Travel CUTS, STA Travel, etc. – Council >> Travel if you’re desperate) agency affiliates on the ground in Turkey. >> They’ll speak English, are quite reliable, and will know about the various >> options better than anyone out of the country. They are able to sell >> non-student tickets. When in Turkey we were able to buy cheap last-minute >> one-ways from these places with ease. > My biggest concern is that this is in August and while I have 6 days in > IST, I have only given an overnight back in germany to catch a > trans-Atlantic flight that is date fixed. > By all means call them now (well, in about 10 hours). It costs 24 > cents/minute to call Turkey with 1016868, so it won’t break the bank.

Thanx for this reference… I went to their site… are there really no hidden charges… is it telephony or ISP, ie. quality ? My traveling mate is a student and is currently in Germany, I directed him tho the specific STA site in Germany to make inquiries (as were returning to Germany) but there is no STA site for Turkey, so I’m not sure how I can get a local IST,STA Affiliate phone number… jay Sun, Feb 10, 2002 — Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi- > Im looking for help with summertime discount prices on air from Istanbul > back to Germany, (one-way)… preferably Berlin, but Frankfurt would do > as well. > My choices seem to be Turkish Air, Czech Air and Azerbaijan Airlines but > the cheapest fare is over $400 one way back to Berlin… but flights.com > does not have detail flight info on the latter two and Turkish Air site > will only display business class and only 3 months out ($700)… so I > dont give much value to that $400 either. > Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > trip… is this not realistic ? > Thanx. > jay > Sun, Feb 10, 2002

There are always a lot of charters between Turkey and Germany (where most Turkish people outside of Turkey live). Take a look at www.oegertours.de a touroperator on the German market, founded by a Turk and specialized on Turkey. If you are in Berlin prior to your trip to Turkey, you can easily find a ticket to IST for about 200Euro round trip. Just take a walk in the Kreuzberg area, there are zillions of Turkish travel agencies! If you want to purchase a flight in the last minute (i.e. at least 2 weeks prior to departure), check out www.ltur.de or www.lastminute.de or www.5vorflug.de I flew Izmir-Istanbul myself (Izmir is the closest airport to Ephesos) and in 1999, the flight was way less than $200 (one way). We flew with TK as well. HTH Tatjana in Berlin

Response:

Thanx very much for this info jay Sun, Feb 10, 2002 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi- > Im looking for help with summertime discount prices on air from Istanbul > back to Germany, (one-way)… preferably Berlin, but Frankfurt would do > as well. > My choices seem to be Turkish Air, Czech Air and Azerbaijan Airlines but > the cheapest fare is over $400 one way back to Berlin… but flights.com > does not have detail flight info on the latter two and Turkish Air site > will only display business class and only 3 months out ($700)… so I > dont give much value to that $400 either. > Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > trip… is this not realistic ? > Thanx. > jay > Sun, Feb 10, 2002 > There are always a lot of charters between Turkey and Germany (where most > Turkish people outside of Turkey live). Take a look at www.oegertours.de a > touroperator on the German market, founded by a Turk and specialized on > Turkey. If you are in Berlin prior to your trip to Turkey, you can easily > find a ticket to IST for about 200Euro round trip. Just take a walk in the > Kreuzberg area, there are zillions of Turkish travel agencies! > If you want to purchase a flight in the last minute (i.e. at least 2 weeks > prior to departure), check out www.ltur.de or www.lastminute.de or > www.5vorflug.de > I flew Izmir-Istanbul myself (Izmir is the closest airport to Ephesos) and > in 1999, the flight was way less than $200 (one way). We flew with TK as > well. > HTH > Tatjana in Berlin

– Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

>> By all means call them now (well, in about 10 hours). It costs 24 > cents/minute to call Turkey with 1016868, so it won’t break the bank. > Thanx for this reference… I went to their site… are there really no > hidden charges… is it telephony or ISP, ie. quality ?

I’ve been using it ever since my previous long distance company went bankrupt (!) just because I’ve been too lazy to sign up with anyone else. The quality seems fine, and they don’t charge any special fees or minimums (other than the federal taxes that all long distance companies are required to charge). It’s not as cheap as the cheapest carriers, but for 10c/min to the Netherlands and 12c to Australia, it solves my problems. > My traveling mate is a student and is currently in Germany, I directed > him tho the specific STA site in Germany to make inquiries (as were > returning to Germany) but there is no STA site for Turkey, so I’m not > sure how I can get a local IST,STA Affiliate phone number…

I dug up the receipt from the place we used in Istanbul; it was called Genctur (for what it’s worth, they pronounce the C like a J). It was within walking distance of the Aya Sofia in the Sultanahmet area; the phone number is +90 212 520 5274. I had initially gotten their number from the Travel CUTS (Canadian student travel org) site. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

Response:

> > My traveling mate is a student and is currently in Germany, I directed > him tho the specific STA site in Germany to make inquiries (as were > returning to Germany) but there is no STA site for Turkey, so I’m not > sure how I can get a local IST,STA Affiliate phone number… > I dug up the receipt from the place we used in Istanbul; it was called > Genctur (for what it’s worth, they pronounce the C like a J). It was within > walking distance of the Aya Sofia in the Sultanahmet area; the phone number > is +90 212 520 5274. I had initially gotten their number from the Travel > CUTS (Canadian student travel org) site.

Thanx so much for your efforts, Im sure it will be a very good resource for getting beyond this hurdle. jay Sun, Feb 10, 2002 > miguel > — > Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

– Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

Turk Hava Yollari (Turkish Airlines) IST  FRA 1587 A313 Airbus  Y 0 8:35 AM 10:40 AM Total price ow pp including taxes is 396.00 USD. http://airtravelcenter.com/atcbrokerww.htm Istanbul (IST) – Amsterdam (AMS) 06.00 – 13 MAR 2002 08.35 – 13 MAR 2002 Klm Royal Dutch Airlines 1610 S  Amsterdam (AMS) – Berlin (TXL) 09.40 – 13 MAR 2002 10.55 – 13 MAR 2002 Klm Royal Dutch Airlines 1823 S USD 385.00 TAX USD 27.57 USD 412.57 http://airtravelcenter.com/tselect.htm more options via http://airtravelcenter.com/flyeurope.html — Air Travel Center on the web airtravelcenter.com email over the air airtravelcenter.ch voice wire 1-717-732-7222 1-800-931-7222 data wire 1-717-728-1269 snail mail 1 East Manor Avenue (rear bldg) Enola, Pa. US 17025-2822

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi- > Im looking for help with summertime discount prices on air from Istanbul > back to Germany, (one-way)… preferably Berlin, but Frankfurt would do > as well. > My choices seem to be Turkish Air, Czech Air and Azerbaijan Airlines but > the cheapest fare is over $400 one way back to Berlin… but flights.com > does not have detail flight info on the latter two and Turkish Air site > will only display business class and only 3 months out ($700)… so I > dont give much value to that $400 either. > Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > trip… is this not realistic ? > Thanx. > jay > Sun, Feb 10, 2002 > — > Legend insists that as he finished his abject… > Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m an American who booked my vacation via a travel agency/tour wholesaler >in > Germany.  It was much cheaper for me this way.  I flew on Free Bird >Airlines > which is a charter airline that flies from Berlin to Istanbul non-stop. >Berlin > is home to the largest Turkish population outside of Turkey.  The airline >was > decent although I felt uncomfortable being that I was the only >Asian-American > on the flight.  You can contact TurkTur for great deals.  They speak >English > and have good rates with Free Bird Airlines.  www.turktur.de >Free Bird Airlines??? Never ever heard of them. BTW are you sure about the >link? There is a Turkish site that appears with Turkish MP3s for >download…… >Could it be http://www.tuerktur.de/ ??? >Tatjana in Berlin

It’s a pretty good airline, actually.  They fly only twice a week from Tegel. The service was good, not so friendly, but then I’m already used to that flying with Lufthansa.  The food was okay too.  For a three hour flight, it was well worth the money.  Most of the passengers were Turks going back home.  I don’t think they cater to tourists as most Germans would prefer staying somewhere along the coast than Istanbul. The tour operator (TurkTur) was really cheap.  We stayed at a Best Western for five days with breakfast including airfare for only $275.00 per person (travel industry rate).  With the dollar being high against the DM at the time and Turkey’s devalued currency it was a real bargain for me. I hope the dollar stays high as I plan to go back to Berlin later this year.  What a beautiful

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Thanx for you input! >Do you happen to know what days they RETURN to Berlin from IST (I only >need return passage) ? >Do you think I will have to buy a round trip ticket and discard one of >the legs or will they sell a one-way ticket without a substantial >penalty ? >Thanx Again! >jay >Mon, Feb 11, 2002 >–

I believe you can purchase a one-way ticket, although sometimes it’s cheaper to book roundtrip and discard the return leg.  You might want to check with them on that.  As for the schedules, they fly on the same days from IST to Berlin TXL; they simply do a turnaround in Berlin.  They might change their schedule as the season has changed.    I think booking through them is much cheaper than a scheduled airline.  Plus, they offer nonstop service.  They operate on a MD-80 aircraft with meals and all, even though it’s only for three hours or so.  I think you can also see how the airline looks like on the Internet.  I was hesitate to fly with them as first.  I thought I would be flying with chickens in the cabin, but it’s like a regular airline. Hope this helps!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > It’s a pretty good airline, actually.  They fly only twice a week from Tegel. > The service was good, not so friendly, but then I’m already used to that > flying > with Lufthansa.  The food was okay too.  For a three hour flight, it was well > worth the money.  Most of the passengers were Turks going back home.  I don’t > think they cater to tourists as most Germans would prefer staying somewhere > along the coast than Istanbul. > The tour operator (TurkTur) was really cheap.  We stayed at a Best Western > for > five days with breakfast including airfare for only $275.00 per person > (travel > industry rate).  With the dollar being high against the DM at the time and > Turkey’s devalued currency it was a real bargain for me. I hope the dollar > stays high as I plan to go back to Berlin later this year.  What a beautiful

Thanx for you input! Do you happen to know what days they RETURN to Berlin from IST (I only need return passage) ? Do you think I will have to buy a round trip ticket and discard one of the legs or will they sell a one-way ticket without a substantial penalty ? Thanx Again! jay Mon, Feb 11, 2002 — Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hi- >Im looking for help with summertime discount prices on air from Istanbul >back to Germany, (one-way)… preferably Berlin, but Frankfurt would do >as well. >My choices seem to be Turkish Air, Czech Air and Azerbaijan Airlines but >the cheapest fare is over $400 one way back to Berlin… but flights.com >does not have detail flight info on the latter two and Turkish Air site >will only display business class and only 3 months out ($700)… so I >dont give much value to that $400 either. >Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you >could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this >trip… is this not realistic ? >Thanx. >jay >Sun, Feb 10, 2002 >– >Legend insists that as he finished his abject… >Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

I’m an American who booked my vacation via a travel agency/tour wholesaler in Germany.  It was much cheaper for me this way.  I flew on Free Bird Airlines which is a charter airline that flies from Berlin to Istanbul non-stop.  Berlin is home to the largest Turkish population outside of Turkey.  The airline was decent although I felt uncomfortable being that I was the only  Asian-American on the flight.  You can contact TurkTur for great deals.  They speak English and have good rates with Free Bird Airlines.  www.turktur.de

Response:

> I flew on Free Bird Airlines which is a charter airline that flies from > Berlin to Istanbul non-stop.  Berlin is home to the largest Turkish > population outside of Turkey.  The airline was decent although I felt > uncomfortable being that I was the only Asian-American on the flight.

Why? miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

Response:

> I’m an American who booked my vacation via a travel agency/tour wholesaler in > Germany.  It was much cheaper for me this way.  I flew on Free Bird Airlines > which is a charter airline that flies from Berlin to Istanbul non-stop. Berlin > is home to the largest Turkish population outside of Turkey.  The airline was > decent although I felt uncomfortable being that I was the only Asian-American > on the flight.  You can contact TurkTur for great deals.  They speak English > and have good rates with Free Bird Airlines.  www.turktur.de

Free Bird Airlines??? Never ever heard of them. BTW are you sure about the link? There is a Turkish site that appears with Turkish MP3s for download…… Could it be http://www.tuerktur.de/ ??? Tatjana in Berlin

Response:

Turk Hava Yollari (Turkish Airlines) IST  FRA 1587 A313 Airbus  Y 0 8:35 AM 10:40 AM Total price ow pp including taxes is 396.00 USD. http://airtravelcenter.com/atcbrokerww.htm Istanbul (IST) – Amsterdam (AMS) 06.00 – 13 MAR 2002 08.35 – 13 MAR 2002 Klm Royal Dutch Airlines 1610 S  Amsterdam (AMS) – Berlin (TXL) 09.40 – 13 MAR 2002 10.55 – 13 MAR 2002 Klm Royal Dutch Airlines 1823 S USD 385.00 TAX USD 27.57 USD 412.57 http://airtravelcenter.com/tselect.htm more options via http://airtravelcenter.com/flyeurope.html — Air Travel Center on the web airtravelcenter.com email over the air airtravelcenter.ch voice wire 1-717-732-7222 1-800-931-7222 data wire 1-717-728-1269 snail mail 1 East Manor Avenue (rear bldg) Enola, Pa. US 17025-2822

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi- > Im looking for help with summertime discount prices on air from Istanbul > back to Germany, (one-way)… preferably Berlin, but Frankfurt would do > as well. > My choices seem to be Turkish Air, Czech Air and Azerbaijan Airlines but > the cheapest fare is over $400 one way back to Berlin… but flights.com > does not have detail flight info on the latter two and Turkish Air site > will only display business class and only 3 months out ($700)… so I > dont give much value to that $400 either. > Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > trip… is this not realistic ? > Thanx. > jay > Sun, Feb 10, 2002 > — > Legend insists that as he finished his abject… > Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

>> By all means call them now (well, in about 10 hours). It costs 24 > cents/minute to call Turkey with 1016868, so it won’t break the bank. > Thanx for this reference… I went to their site… are there really no > hidden charges… is it telephony or ISP, ie. quality ?

I’ve been using it ever since my previous long distance company went bankrupt (!) just because I’ve been too lazy to sign up with anyone else. The quality seems fine, and they don’t charge any special fees or minimums (other than the federal taxes that all long distance companies are required to charge). It’s not as cheap as the cheapest carriers, but for 10c/min to the Netherlands and 12c to Australia, it solves my problems. > My traveling mate is a student and is currently in Germany, I directed > him tho the specific STA site in Germany to make inquiries (as were > returning to Germany) but there is no STA site for Turkey, so I’m not > sure how I can get a local IST,STA Affiliate phone number…

I dug up the receipt from the place we used in Istanbul; it was called Genctur (for what it’s worth, they pronounce the C like a J). It was within walking distance of the Aya Sofia in the Sultanahmet area; the phone number is +90 212 520 5274. I had initially gotten their number from the Travel CUTS (Canadian student travel org) site. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

Response:

> > My traveling mate is a student and is currently in Germany, I directed > him tho the specific STA site in Germany to make inquiries (as were > returning to Germany) but there is no STA site for Turkey, so I’m not > sure how I can get a local IST,STA Affiliate phone number… > I dug up the receipt from the place we used in Istanbul; it was called > Genctur (for what it’s worth, they pronounce the C like a J). It was within > walking distance of the Aya Sofia in the Sultanahmet area; the phone number > is +90 212 520 5274. I had initially gotten their number from the Travel > CUTS (Canadian student travel org) site.

Thanx so much for your efforts, Im sure it will be a very good resource for getting beyond this hurdle. jay Sun, Feb 10, 2002 > miguel > — > Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

– Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi- > Im looking for help with summertime discount prices on air from Istanbul > back to Germany, (one-way)… preferably Berlin, but Frankfurt would do > as well. > My choices seem to be Turkish Air, Czech Air and Azerbaijan Airlines but > the cheapest fare is over $400 one way back to Berlin… but flights.com > does not have detail flight info on the latter two and Turkish Air site > will only display business class and only 3 months out ($700)… so I > dont give much value to that $400 either. > Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > trip… is this not realistic ? > Thanx. > jay > Sun, Feb 10, 2002

There are always a lot of charters between Turkey and Germany (where most Turkish people outside of Turkey live). Take a look at www.oegertours.de a touroperator on the German market, founded by a Turk and specialized on Turkey. If you are in Berlin prior to your trip to Turkey, you can easily find a ticket to IST for about 200Euro round trip. Just take a walk in the Kreuzberg area, there are zillions of Turkish travel agencies! If you want to purchase a flight in the last minute (i.e. at least 2 weeks prior to departure), check out www.ltur.de or www.lastminute.de or www.5vorflug.de I flew Izmir-Istanbul myself (Izmir is the closest airport to Ephesos) and in 1999, the flight was way less than $200 (one way). We flew with TK as well. HTH Tatjana in Berlin

Response:

Thanx very much for this info jay Sun, Feb 10, 2002 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi- > Im looking for help with summertime discount prices on air from Istanbul > back to Germany, (one-way)… preferably Berlin, but Frankfurt would do > as well. > My choices seem to be Turkish Air, Czech Air and Azerbaijan Airlines but > the cheapest fare is over $400 one way back to Berlin… but flights.com > does not have detail flight info on the latter two and Turkish Air site > will only display business class and only 3 months out ($700)… so I > dont give much value to that $400 either. > Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > trip… is this not realistic ? > Thanx. > jay > Sun, Feb 10, 2002 > There are always a lot of charters between Turkey and Germany (where most > Turkish people outside of Turkey live). Take a look at www.oegertours.de a > touroperator on the German market, founded by a Turk and specialized on > Turkey. If you are in Berlin prior to your trip to Turkey, you can easily > find a ticket to IST for about 200Euro round trip. Just take a walk in the > Kreuzberg area, there are zillions of Turkish travel agencies! > If you want to purchase a flight in the last minute (i.e. at least 2 weeks > prior to departure), check out www.ltur.de or www.lastminute.de or > www.5vorflug.de > I flew Izmir-Istanbul myself (Izmir is the closest airport to Ephesos) and > in 1999, the flight was way less than $200 (one way). We flew with TK as > well. > HTH > Tatjana in Berlin

– Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

> >> Try telephoning the student travel (Travel CUTS, STA Travel, etc. – Council >> Travel if you’re desperate) agency affiliates on the ground in Turkey. >> They’ll speak English, are quite reliable, and will know about the various >> options better than anyone out of the country. They are able to sell >> non-student tickets. When in Turkey we were able to buy cheap last-minute >> one-ways from these places with ease. > My biggest concern is that this is in August and while I have 6 days in > IST, I have only given an overnight back in germany to catch a > trans-Atlantic flight that is date fixed. > By all means call them now (well, in about 10 hours). It costs 24 > cents/minute to call Turkey with 1016868, so it won’t break the bank.

Thanx for this reference… I went to their site… are there really no hidden charges… is it telephony or ISP, ie. quality ? My traveling mate is a student and is currently in Germany, I directed him tho the specific STA site in Germany to make inquiries (as were returning to Germany) but there is no STA site for Turkey, so I’m not sure how I can get a local IST,STA Affiliate phone number… jay Sun, Feb 10, 2002 — Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

>> Try telephoning the student travel (Travel CUTS, STA Travel, etc. – Council > Travel if you’re desperate) agency affiliates on the ground in Turkey. > They’ll speak English, are quite reliable, and will know about the various > options better than anyone out of the country. They are able to sell > non-student tickets. When in Turkey we were able to buy cheap last-minute > one-ways from these places with ease. > My biggest concern is that this is in August and while I have 6 days in > IST, I have only given an overnight back in germany to catch a > trans-Atlantic flight that is date fixed.

By all means call them now (well, in about 10 hours). It costs 24 cents/minute to call Turkey with 1016868, so it won’t break the bank. > The fares you were seeing were on scheduled flights or charters (that I > cant search for) ?

We flew regular flights on Turk Hava Yollari or whatever Turkish Airways is called domestically. > Did they also have cheap fares to Ephesus… on the Turkish air site its > just over $200 return, not bad I guess really.

The most we paid was about $70 from Adana to Istanbul on the way back from Syria. That’s about 450 miles so if it’s any benchmark (I have no idea how fares are structured) you shouldn’t expect to be paying all that much. We took an overnight bus from Istanbul to Selcuk so don’t know about the fares for that. Also, we were there a couple years ago, so things may be different now. But it’s definitely worth making the phone call. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > > trip… is this not realistic ? > Try telephoning the student travel (Travel CUTS, STA Travel, etc. – Council > Travel if you’re desperate) agency affiliates on the ground in Turkey. > They’ll speak English, are quite reliable, and will know about the various > options better than anyone out of the country. They are able to sell > non-student tickets. When in Turkey we were able to buy cheap last-minute > one-ways from these places with ease. > My biggest concern is that this is in August and while I have 6 days in > IST, I have only given an overnight back in germany to catch a > trans-Atlantic flight that is date fixed. > The fares you were seeing were on scheduled flights or charters (that I > cant search for) ? > Did they also have cheap fares to Ephesus… on the Turkish air site its > just over $200 return, not bad I guess really.

I think you are asking a lot if you expect to book a ‘legal’ ticket from outside Turkey for this – realistically, the way you’ll travel for that kind of money is by buying a Sat night throw away locally (which will almost always be cheaper than one way). As an alternative to those the above, try Malev in Istanbul, who can be cheap for connections. Dont mention the ‘throw away’ bit, obviously, which I can’t condone or recommend and wouldn’t do myself etc etc Address: Elmadag Cumhuriyet Caddesi 141-147, Umac apt. Tel: (+90)(212)232 4839 Fax: (+90)(212) 230 2034

Response:

Hi- Im looking for help with summertime discount prices on air from Istanbul back to Germany, (one-way)… preferably Berlin, but Frankfurt would do as well. My choices seem to be Turkish Air, Czech Air and Azerbaijan Airlines but the cheapest fare is over $400 one way back to Berlin… but flights.com does not have detail flight info on the latter two and Turkish Air site will only display business class and only 3 months out ($700)… so I dont give much value to that $400 either. Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this trip… is this not realistic ? Thanx. jay Sun, Feb 10, 2002 — Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

> Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > trip… is this not realistic ?

Try telephoning the student travel (Travel CUTS, STA Travel, etc. – Council Travel if you’re desperate) agency affiliates on the ground in Turkey. They’ll speak English, are quite reliable, and will know about the various options better than anyone out of the country. They are able to sell non-student tickets. When in Turkey we were able to buy cheap last-minute one-ways from these places with ease. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

Response:

> > Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > trip… is this not realistic ? > Try telephoning the student travel (Travel CUTS, STA Travel, etc. – Council > Travel if you’re desperate) agency affiliates on the ground in Turkey. > They’ll speak English, are quite reliable, and will know about the various > options better than anyone out of the country. They are able to sell > non-student tickets. When in Turkey we were able to buy cheap last-minute > one-ways from these places with ease.

My biggest concern is that this is in August and while I have 6 days in IST, I have only given an overnight back in germany to catch a trans-Atlantic flight that is date fixed. The fares you were seeing were on scheduled flights or charters (that I cant search for) ? Did they also have cheap fares to Ephesus… on the Turkish air site its just over $200 return, not bad I guess really. thanx jay Sun, Feb 10, 2002 > miguel

– Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m an American who booked my vacation via a travel agency/tour wholesaler >in > Germany.  It was much cheaper for me this way.  I flew on Free Bird >Airlines > which is a charter airline that flies from Berlin to Istanbul non-stop. >Berlin > is home to the largest Turkish population outside of Turkey.  The airline >was > decent although I felt uncomfortable being that I was the only >Asian-American > on the flight.  You can contact TurkTur for great deals.  They speak >English > and have good rates with Free Bird Airlines.  www.turktur.de >Free Bird Airlines??? Never ever heard of them. BTW are you sure about the >link? There is a Turkish site that appears with Turkish MP3s for >download…… >Could it be http://www.tuerktur.de/ ??? >Tatjana in Berlin

It’s a pretty good airline, actually.  They fly only twice a week from Tegel. The service was good, not so friendly, but then I’m already used to that flying with Lufthansa.  The food was okay too.  For a three hour flight, it was well worth the money.  Most of the passengers were Turks going back home.  I don’t think they cater to tourists as most Germans would prefer staying somewhere along the coast than Istanbul. The tour operator (TurkTur) was really cheap.  We stayed at a Best Western for five days with breakfast including airfare for only $275.00 per person (travel industry rate).  With the dollar being high against the DM at the time and Turkey’s devalued currency it was a real bargain for me. I hope the dollar stays high as I plan to go back to Berlin later this year.  What a beautiful

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Thanx for you input! >Do you happen to know what days they RETURN to Berlin from IST (I only >need return passage) ? >Do you think I will have to buy a round trip ticket and discard one of >the legs or will they sell a one-way ticket without a substantial >penalty ? >Thanx Again! >jay >Mon, Feb 11, 2002 >–

I believe you can purchase a one-way ticket, although sometimes it’s cheaper to book roundtrip and discard the return leg.  You might want to check with them on that.  As for the schedules, they fly on the same days from IST to Berlin TXL; they simply do a turnaround in Berlin.  They might change their schedule as the season has changed.    I think booking through them is much cheaper than a scheduled airline.  Plus, they offer nonstop service.  They operate on a MD-80 aircraft with meals and all, even though it’s only for three hours or so.  I think you can also see how the airline looks like on the Internet.  I was hesitate to fly with them as first.  I thought I would be flying with chickens in the cabin, but it’s like a regular airline. Hope this helps!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > It’s a pretty good airline, actually.  They fly only twice a week from Tegel. > The service was good, not so friendly, but then I’m already used to that > flying > with Lufthansa.  The food was okay too.  For a three hour flight, it was well > worth the money.  Most of the passengers were Turks going back home.  I don’t > think they cater to tourists as most Germans would prefer staying somewhere > along the coast than Istanbul. > The tour operator (TurkTur) was really cheap.  We stayed at a Best Western > for > five days with breakfast including airfare for only $275.00 per person > (travel > industry rate).  With the dollar being high against the DM at the time and > Turkey’s devalued currency it was a real bargain for me. I hope the dollar > stays high as I plan to go back to Berlin later this year.  What a beautiful

Thanx for you input! Do you happen to know what days they RETURN to Berlin from IST (I only need return passage) ? Do you think I will have to buy a round trip ticket and discard one of the legs or will they sell a one-way ticket without a substantial penalty ? Thanx Again! jay Mon, Feb 11, 2002 — Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hi- >Im looking for help with summertime discount prices on air from Istanbul >back to Germany, (one-way)… preferably Berlin, but Frankfurt would do >as well. >My choices seem to be Turkish Air, Czech Air and Azerbaijan Airlines but >the cheapest fare is over $400 one way back to Berlin… but flights.com >does not have detail flight info on the latter two and Turkish Air site >will only display business class and only 3 months out ($700)… so I >dont give much value to that $400 either. >Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you >could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this >trip… is this not realistic ? >Thanx. >jay >Sun, Feb 10, 2002 >– >Legend insists that as he finished his abject… >Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

I’m an American who booked my vacation via a travel agency/tour wholesaler in Germany.  It was much cheaper for me this way.  I flew on Free Bird Airlines which is a charter airline that flies from Berlin to Istanbul non-stop.  Berlin is home to the largest Turkish population outside of Turkey.  The airline was decent although I felt uncomfortable being that I was the only  Asian-American on the flight.  You can contact TurkTur for great deals.  They speak English and have good rates with Free Bird Airlines.  www.turktur.de

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> I flew on Free Bird Airlines which is a charter airline that flies from > Berlin to Istanbul non-stop.  Berlin is home to the largest Turkish > population outside of Turkey.  The airline was decent although I felt > uncomfortable being that I was the only Asian-American on the flight.

Why? miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

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> I’m an American who booked my vacation via a travel agency/tour wholesaler in > Germany.  It was much cheaper for me this way.  I flew on Free Bird Airlines > which is a charter airline that flies from Berlin to Istanbul non-stop. Berlin > is home to the largest Turkish population outside of Turkey.  The airline was > decent although I felt uncomfortable being that I was the only Asian-American > on the flight.  You can contact TurkTur for great deals.  They speak English > and have good rates with Free Bird Airlines.  www.turktur.de

Free Bird Airlines??? Never ever heard of them. BTW are you sure about the link? There is a Turkish site that appears with Turkish MP3s for download…… Could it be http://www.tuerktur.de/ ??? Tatjana in Berlin

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Turk Hava Yollari (Turkish Airlines) IST  FRA 1587 A313 Airbus  Y 0 8:35 AM 10:40 AM Total price ow pp including taxes is 396.00 USD. http://airtravelcenter.com/atcbrokerww.htm Istanbul (IST) – Amsterdam (AMS) 06.00 – 13 MAR 2002 08.35 – 13 MAR 2002 Klm Royal Dutch Airlines 1610 S  Amsterdam (AMS) – Berlin (TXL) 09.40 – 13 MAR 2002 10.55 – 13 MAR 2002 Klm Royal Dutch Airlines 1823 S USD 385.00 TAX USD 27.57 USD 412.57 http://airtravelcenter.com/tselect.htm more options via http://airtravelcenter.com/flyeurope.html — Air Travel Center on the web airtravelcenter.com email over the air airtravelcenter.ch voice wire 1-717-732-7222 1-800-931-7222 data wire 1-717-728-1269 snail mail 1 East Manor Avenue (rear bldg) Enola, Pa. US 17025-2822

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi- > Im looking for help with summertime discount prices on air from Istanbul > back to Germany, (one-way)… preferably Berlin, but Frankfurt would do > as well. > My choices seem to be Turkish Air, Czech Air and Azerbaijan Airlines but > the cheapest fare is over $400 one way back to Berlin… but flights.com > does not have detail flight info on the latter two and Turkish Air site > will only display business class and only 3 months out ($700)… so I > dont give much value to that $400 either. > Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > trip… is this not realistic ? > Thanx. > jay > Sun, Feb 10, 2002 > — > Legend insists that as he finished his abject… > Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

>> By all means call them now (well, in about 10 hours). It costs 24 > cents/minute to call Turkey with 1016868, so it won’t break the bank. > Thanx for this reference… I went to their site… are there really no > hidden charges… is it telephony or ISP, ie. quality ?

I’ve been using it ever since my previous long distance company went bankrupt (!) just because I’ve been too lazy to sign up with anyone else. The quality seems fine, and they don’t charge any special fees or minimums (other than the federal taxes that all long distance companies are required to charge). It’s not as cheap as the cheapest carriers, but for 10c/min to the Netherlands and 12c to Australia, it solves my problems. > My traveling mate is a student and is currently in Germany, I directed > him tho the specific STA site in Germany to make inquiries (as were > returning to Germany) but there is no STA site for Turkey, so I’m not > sure how I can get a local IST,STA Affiliate phone number…

I dug up the receipt from the place we used in Istanbul; it was called Genctur (for what it’s worth, they pronounce the C like a J). It was within walking distance of the Aya Sofia in the Sultanahmet area; the phone number is +90 212 520 5274. I had initially gotten their number from the Travel CUTS (Canadian student travel org) site. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

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> > My traveling mate is a student and is currently in Germany, I directed > him tho the specific STA site in Germany to make inquiries (as were > returning to Germany) but there is no STA site for Turkey, so I’m not > sure how I can get a local IST,STA Affiliate phone number… > I dug up the receipt from the place we used in Istanbul; it was called > Genctur (for what it’s worth, they pronounce the C like a J). It was within > walking distance of the Aya Sofia in the Sultanahmet area; the phone number > is +90 212 520 5274. I had initially gotten their number from the Travel > CUTS (Canadian student travel org) site.

Thanx so much for your efforts, Im sure it will be a very good resource for getting beyond this hurdle. jay Sun, Feb 10, 2002 > miguel > — > Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

– Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi- > Im looking for help with summertime discount prices on air from Istanbul > back to Germany, (one-way)… preferably Berlin, but Frankfurt would do > as well. > My choices seem to be Turkish Air, Czech Air and Azerbaijan Airlines but > the cheapest fare is over $400 one way back to Berlin… but flights.com > does not have detail flight info on the latter two and Turkish Air site > will only display business class and only 3 months out ($700)… so I > dont give much value to that $400 either. > Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > trip… is this not realistic ? > Thanx. > jay > Sun, Feb 10, 2002

There are always a lot of charters between Turkey and Germany (where most Turkish people outside of Turkey live). Take a look at www.oegertours.de a touroperator on the German market, founded by a Turk and specialized on Turkey. If you are in Berlin prior to your trip to Turkey, you can easily find a ticket to IST for about 200Euro round trip. Just take a walk in the Kreuzberg area, there are zillions of Turkish travel agencies! If you want to purchase a flight in the last minute (i.e. at least 2 weeks prior to departure), check out www.ltur.de or www.lastminute.de or www.5vorflug.de I flew Izmir-Istanbul myself (Izmir is the closest airport to Ephesos) and in 1999, the flight was way less than $200 (one way). We flew with TK as well. HTH Tatjana in Berlin

Response:

Thanx very much for this info jay Sun, Feb 10, 2002 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi- > Im looking for help with summertime discount prices on air from Istanbul > back to Germany, (one-way)… preferably Berlin, but Frankfurt would do > as well. > My choices seem to be Turkish Air, Czech Air and Azerbaijan Airlines but > the cheapest fare is over $400 one way back to Berlin… but flights.com > does not have detail flight info on the latter two and Turkish Air site > will only display business class and only 3 months out ($700)… so I > dont give much value to that $400 either. > Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > trip… is this not realistic ? > Thanx. > jay > Sun, Feb 10, 2002 > There are always a lot of charters between Turkey and Germany (where most > Turkish people outside of Turkey live). Take a look at www.oegertours.de a > touroperator on the German market, founded by a Turk and specialized on > Turkey. If you are in Berlin prior to your trip to Turkey, you can easily > find a ticket to IST for about 200Euro round trip. Just take a walk in the > Kreuzberg area, there are zillions of Turkish travel agencies! > If you want to purchase a flight in the last minute (i.e. at least 2 weeks > prior to departure), check out www.ltur.de or www.lastminute.de or > www.5vorflug.de > I flew Izmir-Istanbul myself (Izmir is the closest airport to Ephesos) and > in 1999, the flight was way less than $200 (one way). We flew with TK as > well. > HTH > Tatjana in Berlin

– Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

> >> Try telephoning the student travel (Travel CUTS, STA Travel, etc. – Council >> Travel if you’re desperate) agency affiliates on the ground in Turkey. >> They’ll speak English, are quite reliable, and will know about the various >> options better than anyone out of the country. They are able to sell >> non-student tickets. When in Turkey we were able to buy cheap last-minute >> one-ways from these places with ease. > My biggest concern is that this is in August and while I have 6 days in > IST, I have only given an overnight back in germany to catch a > trans-Atlantic flight that is date fixed. > By all means call them now (well, in about 10 hours). It costs 24 > cents/minute to call Turkey with 1016868, so it won’t break the bank.

Thanx for this reference… I went to their site… are there really no hidden charges… is it telephony or ISP, ie. quality ? My traveling mate is a student and is currently in Germany, I directed him tho the specific STA site in Germany to make inquiries (as were returning to Germany) but there is no STA site for Turkey, so I’m not sure how I can get a local IST,STA Affiliate phone number… jay Sun, Feb 10, 2002 — Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

>> Try telephoning the student travel (Travel CUTS, STA Travel, etc. – Council > Travel if you’re desperate) agency affiliates on the ground in Turkey. > They’ll speak English, are quite reliable, and will know about the various > options better than anyone out of the country. They are able to sell > non-student tickets. When in Turkey we were able to buy cheap last-minute > one-ways from these places with ease. > My biggest concern is that this is in August and while I have 6 days in > IST, I have only given an overnight back in germany to catch a > trans-Atlantic flight that is date fixed.

By all means call them now (well, in about 10 hours). It costs 24 cents/minute to call Turkey with 1016868, so it won’t break the bank. > The fares you were seeing were on scheduled flights or charters (that I > cant search for) ?

We flew regular flights on Turk Hava Yollari or whatever Turkish Airways is called domestically. > Did they also have cheap fares to Ephesus… on the Turkish air site its > just over $200 return, not bad I guess really.

The most we paid was about $70 from Adana to Istanbul on the way back from Syria. That’s about 450 miles so if it’s any benchmark (I have no idea how fares are structured) you shouldn’t expect to be paying all that much. We took an overnight bus from Istanbul to Selcuk so don’t know about the fares for that. Also, we were there a couple years ago, so things may be different now. But it’s definitely worth making the phone call. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > > trip… is this not realistic ? > Try telephoning the student travel (Travel CUTS, STA Travel, etc. – Council > Travel if you’re desperate) agency affiliates on the ground in Turkey. > They’ll speak English, are quite reliable, and will know about the various > options better than anyone out of the country. They are able to sell > non-student tickets. When in Turkey we were able to buy cheap last-minute > one-ways from these places with ease. > My biggest concern is that this is in August and while I have 6 days in > IST, I have only given an overnight back in germany to catch a > trans-Atlantic flight that is date fixed. > The fares you were seeing were on scheduled flights or charters (that I > cant search for) ? > Did they also have cheap fares to Ephesus… on the Turkish air site its > just over $200 return, not bad I guess really.

I think you are asking a lot if you expect to book a ‘legal’ ticket from outside Turkey for this – realistically, the way you’ll travel for that kind of money is by buying a Sat night throw away locally (which will almost always be cheaper than one way). As an alternative to those the above, try Malev in Istanbul, who can be cheap for connections. Dont mention the ‘throw away’ bit, obviously, which I can’t condone or recommend and wouldn’t do myself etc etc Address: Elmadag Cumhuriyet Caddesi 141-147, Umac apt. Tel: (+90)(212)232 4839 Fax: (+90)(212) 230 2034

Response:

Hi- Im looking for help with summertime discount prices on air from Istanbul back to Germany, (one-way)… preferably Berlin, but Frankfurt would do as well. My choices seem to be Turkish Air, Czech Air and Azerbaijan Airlines but the cheapest fare is over $400 one way back to Berlin… but flights.com does not have detail flight info on the latter two and Turkish Air site will only display business class and only 3 months out ($700)… so I dont give much value to that $400 either. Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this trip… is this not realistic ? Thanx. jay Sun, Feb 10, 2002 — Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Response:

> Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > trip… is this not realistic ?

Try telephoning the student travel (Travel CUTS, STA Travel, etc. – Council Travel if you’re desperate) agency affiliates on the ground in Turkey. They’ll speak English, are quite reliable, and will know about the various options better than anyone out of the country. They are able to sell non-student tickets. When in Turkey we were able to buy cheap last-minute one-ways from these places with ease. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

Response:

> > Are there any scheduled charters, consolidators, travel agents that you > could suggest for this 3 hour flight… Im thinking like $200 for this > trip… is this not realistic ? > Try telephoning the student travel (Travel CUTS, STA Travel, etc. – Council > Travel if you’re desperate) agency affiliates on the ground in Turkey. > They’ll speak English, are quite reliable, and will know about the various > options better than anyone out of the country. They are able to sell > non-student tickets. When in Turkey we were able to buy cheap last-minute > one-ways from these places with ease.

My biggest concern is that this is in August and while I have 6 days in IST, I have only given an overnight back in germany to catch a trans-Atlantic flight that is date fixed. The fares you were seeing were on scheduled flights or charters (that I cant search for) ? Did they also have cheap fares to Ephesus… on the Turkish air site its just over $200 return, not bad I guess really. thanx jay Sun, Feb 10, 2002 > miguel

– Legend insists that as he finished his abject… Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

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Question:

Greetings! I may be going to India in May 2002. I was looking for cheapest fare possible. Through internet I saw fares ranging from $1,525 to $1,750 for an adult for three to four weeks vacation. One of our friend recommended a discount travel agent from Florida. He used this firm recently to go oversees. The fare from this firm was $ 1,275 from my town to New Delhi. Another discount ticket broker  from LA offered a price of $,1285.  Last time I traveled oversees was in 1995. What is the mystery behind low fares? I need help soon? With thanks.

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$1171.81 tax included JFK-DEL rt pp similar prices ATL MIA and other east coast no mystery – it all depends on contracts and direction (more expensive going west than east) even from west coast middle going east (ORD) $1217.18 rt pp source: http://airtravelcenter.com/atcbroker.htm — Air Travel Center airtravelcenter.com 1-717-732-7222 1-800-931-7222 1 East Manor Avenue (rear bldg) Enola, Pa. US 17025-2822

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Greetings! I may be going to India in May 2002. I was looking for cheapest > fare possible. Through internet I saw fares ranging from $1,525 to $1,750 > for an adult for three to four weeks vacation. One of our friend recommended > a discount travel agent from Florida. He used this firm recently to go > oversees. The fare from this firm was $ 1,275 from my town to New Delhi. > Another discount ticket broker  from LA offered a price of $,1285.  Last > time I traveled oversees was in 1995. What is the mystery behind low fares? > I need help soon? With thanks.

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